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Asco Red Hat Valves

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SuperiorBrew

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Are these the right ones? I want to start getting the stuff I need to automate my rig.

ASCO RED HAT 8316G54 VALVE LOT OF 2 NEW
AIR, INERT GAS PSI 10- 150
WATER PSI 10-125
PIPE 3/8 IN
6.1 WATTS 60HZ
8.1 WATTS 50HZ
SHELF # 226 JW
 

billtzk

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I got the Asco 8210G15 valves. I bought mine new old stock from an Ebay store for $72 each. Mine are two way 1/2 inch valves.

The one you have are three way 3/8th inch valves. See EDIT below. I don't really understand how a three way valve works but I'm sure someone will enlighten me. Which way does the flow go? From 1 to 2 or from 2 to 1? If the former, then it might support an ignition pilot burner, but if the latter, then I presume it is a mixing valve.

Some 8316Gxx info I found says it requires a 10 PSI minimum operating differential. Not sure what that means either.

EDIT

I don't think this type of valve is what you want based on this description of 3 way valve operation.
 
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mr x

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They look good to me, but I'm not sure what you want to do with them. There are many ASCO valves.
 
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SuperiorBrew

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How about these?

SET of 2 each. (Two Valves) NEW
Part number: 8210G37
Stainless Steel
120 V 60 Hz.
ASCO Solenoid Valve 1/2"
Specifications :

ASCO Red Hat general purpose 2-way normally closed stainless steel solenoid valves will provide On/Off control of air, inert gas, water, and other clean flowing media compatible with the materials of construction.
Type: 2-Way Normally Closed (energize to open)
Construction: Stainless Steel 304 Body, NBR (buna-n) seals, other materials include PA (nylon), stainless steel 305, 430F, 302, and a silver shading ring


 

billtzk

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SuperiorBrew said:
How about these?

SET of 2 each. (Two Valves) NEW
Part number: 8210G37
Stainless Steel
120 V 60 Hz.
ASCO Solenoid Valve 1/2"
Specifications :

ASCO Red Hat general purpose 2-way normally closed stainless steel solenoid valves will provide On/Off control of air, inert gas, water, and other clean flowing media compatible with the materials of construction.
Type: 2-Way Normally Closed (energize to open)
Construction: Stainless Steel 304 Body, NBR (buna-n) seals, other materials include PA (nylon), stainless steel 305, 430F, 302, and a silver shading ring


Those are exactly the same ones that colplink used on his original Brutus Ten. Very good valves. I looked for them, but couldn't find them for a good price. All the ones I could find were like $300 plus dollars each. They are stainless.

Now, you don't need stainless for a gas valve. The 8210G15 I got is exactly the same valve but in brass. Even so, the 8210G37 has extreme cool factor.
 
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SuperiorBrew

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billtzk said:
Those are exactly the same ones that colplink used on his original Brutus Ten. Very good valves. I looked for them, but couldn't find them for a good price. All the ones I could find were like $300 plus dollars each. They are stainless.

Now, you don't need stainless for a gas valve. The 8210G15 I got is exactly the same valve but in brass. Even so, the 8210G37 has extreme cool factor.
Are you using love controlers? If so what model?
 

billtzk

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I'm not very original. I bought the exact ones listed in the 2007 November BYO article about Lonnie MacAllister's Brutus Ten ... The Love TS EW-93520-00. I bought them from Cole Parmer at that link there. Check out the reviews at the bottom of the page. All from brewers, and probably all because of the Brutus Ten.

Mine are not wired up yet because I haven't gotten to that part of my build. I'm still working on the stand, but it is almost done.
 

kladue

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You might want to pass on the ASCO 8316 models as they are a 3 way and need at least 5 PSI differential to operate as they are a pilot operated type valve. Be careful with seat materials as Viton and teflon are normally used with hydrocarbons.
 

billtzk

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kladue said:
You might want to pass on the ASCO 8316 models as they are a 3 way and need at least 5 PSI differential to operate as they are a pilot operated type valve. Be careful with seat materials as Viton and teflon are normally used with hydrocarbons.
After a little research, I finally understand what is meant by "pilot operated" and why the pressure differential is important. When the pilot chamber is open to line pressure, it helps to close and seat the valve. That happens when power is off on a normally-closed valve such as the 8210g15. If there's not enough line pressure, the valve might not seat and close all the way.

I suspect the 8210g15's I have won't work in my application after all. Neither would the 8210g37 (stainless). They might work in a propane setup with 5 PSI or higher pressure. They require a 5 PSI differential and I'm supplying roughly .25 PSI of natural gas. I can bump that up but not over 2 PSI as that is the max that the gas company supplies to my meter. And if I do that, I have to have another regulator between my brew stand and the house to drop the pressure back down to something between .25 and .5 PSI.

I don't know if the seat material is teflon or Viton. But I don't suppose it matters as it appears I'm going to have to sell these and get something that'll work on low pressure natural gas.

I think the 1/2 inch brass 8210g094 is probably better since it isn't a pilot-operated valve and is rated for 0 PSI differential. But it is for inert gas, not fuel gas.

The 8040g22 (0 to 2 PSI) or 8215g20 (0 to 50 PSI) are rated for fuel gas and are most likely the best choices.
 

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Asco valves are the benchmark in solenoid valves, however there are so many different ones on ebay, finding the right ones was difficult for me, if you are using them to control the flow of gas( Brutus X) they need not be stainless steel. I believe the reason Lonnie used them was he wanted all the piping to be stainless steel to have it all match. After losing out on a few auctions, I searched for new ones at a reasonable price and found these ,

http://www.stcvalve.com/Process Valve.htm

this company was awesome to work with, and I paid like $53 dollars each for brand new, they shipped out really quick and seem to be a great alternative to the ASCO , if you want they have stainless steel too
 

kladue

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If you are looking for a valve for N.G. at .25 psi you should look for the direct diaphragm type valve as it needs to have the largest orifice size possible to flow at low pressure. It would probably be better to look for the aluminum bodied gas control valves from honeywell, johnson control/baso, or white rodgers as these valves are built with large orifices to keep pressure drop to a minimum. With asco or other type solenoid valves you will probably find that 1/2" line size valves will not flow enough at .25 psi.
 

billtzk

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mrbowenz said:
Asco valves are the benchmark in solenoid valves, however there are so many different ones on ebay, finding the right ones was difficult for me, if you are using them to control the flow of gas( Brutus X) they need not be stainless steel. I believe the reason Lonnie used them was he wanted all the piping to be stainless steel to have it all match. After losing out on a few auctions, I searched for new ones at a reasonable price and found these ,

http://www.stcvalve.com/Process Valve.htm

this company was awesome to work with, and I paid like $53 dollars each for brand new, they shipped out really quick and seem to be a great alternative to the ASCO , if you want they have stainless steel too
Great link, thank you mrbowenz. These look like great alternatives and prices are excellent.

I am now very cautious and I will make sure that I understand what I need before I buy again.

Is your system natural gas or propane, and what is your regulated input pressure?
 

billtzk

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kladue said:
If you are looking for a valve for N.G. at .25 psi you should look for the direct diaphragm type valve as it needs to have the largest orifice size possible to flow at low pressure. It would probably be better to look for the aluminum bodied gas control valves from honeywell, johnson control/baso, or white rodgers as these valves are built with large orifices to keep pressure drop to a minimum. With asco or other type solenoid valves you will probably find that 1/2" line size valves will not flow enough at .25 psi.
kladue thank you for your help. I'm learning a lot here.

would you mind looking at this description of the ASCO 8040/8215 valves? They are made for fuel gas and have aluminum bodies. In particular the chart on the bottom of the page shows the 8040G22 (0 to 2 PSI) and 8215G20 (0 to 50 PSI) 1/2 inch valves with Cv flow values of 5.4 and 4.8 respectively. Is this enough for 7 inch WC (about .25 PSI) natural gas? This seems to be what the valves are intended for and they do not appear to be internal pilot operated valves. I don't know if that means they are diaphragm valves or not.

Also, if you compare them to the 2W160-1/2 on this page that mrbowenz pointed out, it appears similar. The 2w160-1/2 is 1/2 inch brass (not aluminum) direct diaphragm valve with Cv=4.8.

Do you have know of any particular honeywell, johnson control/baso, or white rodgers valves suitable for 7 inch WC natural gas flow that I can compare with. I can't find anything but 24VDC valves and I need 120VAC because of the temperature controllers I'm using. Also, I notice that the 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch Honeywell valves I found have an outlet pressure of 3.5 inch WC, which is half my inlet pressure. Also, I can't find flow coefficients listed for Honeywell valves, so it's hard to compare to the other valves.
 

kladue

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Looks like both the the Asco 8215G20 and the 2W160 valves have same pressure drops which is a measurement called "cv" (GPM of water to produce 2 psi pressure differential), but the asco has a larger orifice. The Honeywell and others will be rated in btu's at 1" WC. pressure drop and typically can be found with 24VAC coils. If you use the line voltage controls just use a 120-24 vac transformer on the controller output or 1 24VAC transformer and 120VAC relays. Would be a bit suprised to find that the gas pressure in the house was above 6" WC as typically the regulators are set for 4" to make appliance controls happy.
Here is a Honeywell gas control valve that would probably work for what you want to do, plug the pilot outlet, and connect to the "MV" terminals, adjust pressure regulator in control valve for control of firing rate of the burner. http://cgi.ebay.com/Honeywell-VR8305-Direct-Ignition-Dual-Valve-Gas-Control_W0QQitemZ200191102105QQihZ010QQcategoryZ109487QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
 

billtzk

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I had a gas leak in my house in the summer and had to have the gas shut off. After the plumbers found it and repaired it, the gas company tech told me he set the pressure at the gas meter regulator to four ounces.

From sources on the internet (yeah, I know) one pound of pressure (1 PSI) is equivalent to 28 inches of water column, or 16 ounces of pressure, or 2 inches of mercury. That's probably true at a particular temperature and atmospheric pressure, so maybe some adjustment is needed for local conditions.

So four ounces would be .25 PSI or 7 inches of WC, right? The only gas appliances I have in my house are my furnace, my stove, and the fireplace log starter (manual valve feeding a bare pipe with slits cut in it). I don't know what pressure my furnace is rated for. It's a modern one about seven years old with electronic instant ignition, not standing pilot. The literature that came with my gas range says it can take 14 inches of water column, which would be .5 PSI. I believe it has it's own regulator on it that the gas line connects to.

I guess I'd have to use a manometer to know for sure, but since the gas guy told me he set it to four ounces, I figured that was 7 inches WC.

And thank you for the info on the valves and electrical.
 
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SuperiorBrew

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billtzk said:
I suspect the 8210g15's I have won't work in my application after all. Neither would the 8210g37 (stainless). They might work in a propane setup with 5 PSI or higher pressure.
I might know someone that would take them off your hands for a good price ;)
 

billtzk

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kladue said:
Here is a Honeywell gas control valve that would probably work for what you want to do, plug the pilot outlet, and connect to the "MV" terminals, adjust pressure regulator in control valve for control of firing rate of the burner. http://cgi.ebay.com/Honeywell-VR8305-Direct-Ignition-Dual-Valve-Gas-Control_W0QQitemZ200191102105QQihZ010QQcategoryZ109487QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Since I'm now in the market for a different valve setup, I'm going to rethink the whole thing.

I was going to use a manually controlled standing pilot to ignite the burner when the temperature controller tells the gas valve to open. Might as well improve the design with a view toward safer operation. An electronic spark ignition valve like those used on furnaces seems like a better way to go.

That's what that VR8305M4801 valve is, isn't it? How is such a valve used in conjunction with an electronic igniter at the burner and what sort of igniter would do the trick?
 

mrbowenz

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billtzk said:
Great link, thank you mrbowenz. These look like great alternatives and prices are excellent.

I am now very cautious and I will make sure that I understand what I need before I buy again.

Is your system natural gas or propane, and what is your regulated input pressure?
LP gas on mine , dial regulator-0 to 20 pounds- jet burners
 

kladue

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If you want to go with direct spark ignition then this model of ignition module would work well with the honeywell valve http://cgi.ebay.com/Honeywell-Direct-Spark-Ignition-Modules-S87J1034_W0QQitemZ260200757464QQihZ016QQcategoryZ20598QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem, coupled with this pilot burner http://cgi.ebay.com/Q345-A-1321-Honeywell-Pilot-Burner-Igniter-Sensor-S86F_W0QQitemZ320205752306QQihZ011QQcategoryZ53303QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem. If you are patient you can aquire these items on Ebay and use a 24VAC transformer with the Love controls to fire the burners on demand instead of needing a standing pilot, follow the schematic on the ignition module for wiring of components.
 

billtzk

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Thanks again kladue. I think I don't need an ignition module with pre-purge though, as the burners are in the open and there are no fumes that need to be cleared. The pre-purge would just add a needless delay for a brew stand burner if I understand it correctly. Aside from higher cost, wouldn't this type be better in this application? S87D-1004

I think I see why some people opt for the simpler solenoid or diaphragm valves and standing pilots. To put together a nice safe gas control system with direct spark ignition control and dual outlet direct ignition gas valve is expensive, bulky, and complex. And you can multiply the bulk and expense times the number of burners you need to control.

There are a bewildering array of different gas valves, ignition modules, flame rods, and so on. Maybe not so complex to an HVAC tech, but that's not most of us. Maybe not so expensive if you watch ebay and wait for the good deals to show up. But there's no getting around the bulk aspect, and the devices don't seem to be NEMA 4 rated. I suspect they are intended for use in protected areas like attached to your furnace in your attic or basement.

It seems to be the way to go though for really safe automated operation.
 

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The S87D-1004 is the module that is on my new system which is set up for 10 psi propane to mass flow controllers that control flow of propane to burner. Power is sent to module then module is wired to parker solenoid valve and pilot spark and flame sensing elements. would have been easier if one used combined ignition/flame sense setup as could eliminate pilot light and direct light fixed flow burner.
 

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Very interesting thread guys, and frankly a bit over my head in this department. I am building a Brutus-10 type system and have been considering alternatives to the standing pilot. Has anyone successfully installed a spark ignition system with controls? Is there a somewhat elegant way of doing this without going on a scavenger hunt? I am going the stainless route on the frame, so I want to make the installation as Sano as possible.

Thanks
KD
 

kladue

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The simple route would be ignition module, 24VAC solenoid valve, ignition probe from a BBQ that is ceramic insulated. Switch 24 VAC power to module, which is wired to solenoid valve, spark lead to ignition probe which is bent to make both spark and have 1/2" minimum flame coverage. Ignition module could be mounted 4'-6' away from burner if you need the space, just get wire core ignition cable from autoparts store.
Should have pictures of completed phase 2 system kettle burner&pilot and boiler burner&pilot assemblies this weekend for reference
 

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Instead of a ASCO valve would I be able to use a gas valve out of a old stove, furnace or dryer? If someone is wanting to go on the cheap that would seem like a good way to go.
 

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kladue said:
The simple route would be ignition module, 24VAC solenoid valve, ignition probe from a BBQ that is ceramic insulated. Switch 24 VAC power to module, which is wired to solenoid valve, spark lead to ignition probe which is bent to make both spark and have 1/2" minimum flame coverage. Ignition module could be mounted 4'-6' away from burner if you need the space, just get wire core ignition cable from autoparts store.
Should have pictures of completed phase 2 system kettle burner&pilot and boiler burner&pilot assemblies this weekend for reference
Hmm. I'll wait to see the pictures, but this sounds a little complicated. I'll have the pilot plans on standby. Thanks!
 

kladue

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Salvaged gas valves from appliences will be too small for most of the NG burners out there, and will not work with high pressure propane systems. Research the ASCO and Parker solenoid valves to get part numbers needed and cruise Ebay for low priced valves with correct size and coil voltages.
 

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Hi billtzk,

I was wondering about the burner you used for your brutus build (http://www.topfoodservice.com/Mercha... tegory_Code=)

How is it? It is about half the cost of those offered by morebeer and I wondered if it is half the quality as well.

Also, about how long did it take for them to ship it out to you?

Any info would be great.

Thanks,

cmp
 

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billtzk said:
Now, you don't need stainless for a gas valve. The 8210G15 I got is exactly the same valve but in brass. Even so, the 8210G37 has extreme cool factor.
i will be ordering my temp controllers and two of these here within the month. Brass for me all the way too. I cant justify spending what they want for stainless
 

HarvInSTL

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mrbowenz said:
Asco valves are the benchmark in solenoid valves, however there are so many different ones on ebay, finding the right ones was difficult for me, if you are using them to control the flow of gas( Brutus X) they need not be stainless steel. I believe the reason Lonnie used them was he wanted all the piping to be stainless steel to have it all match. After losing out on a few auctions, I searched for new ones at a reasonable price and found these ,

http://www.stcvalve.com/Process Valve.htm

this company was awesome to work with, and I paid like $53 dollars each for brand new, they shipped out really quick and seem to be a great alternative to the ASCO , if you want they have stainless steel too
Which valves did you order from STC? Best I can tell I need the 2H120-150, mainly because it uses a Viton seal and supports 0-1000PSI.

Thoughts?
 

kladue

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Standing pilot safety valves for high pressure propane are spendy, usually found on the propane fired space heaters. I believe the valves are made by penn/baso and are rated for 10 psi+ which would work for most of the high pressure burner setup's. Would probably be cheaper if one found the parts on Ebay for an electric ignition system, ignition module, pilot burner, 24vac transformer, needle valve for pilot fuel control, 24vac solenoid valve for main gas.
 

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kladue said:
Standing pilot safety valves for high pressure propane are spendy, usually found on the propane fired space heaters. I believe the valves are made by penn/baso and are rated for 10 psi+ which would work for most of the high pressure burner setup's. Would probably be cheaper if one found the parts on Ebay for an electric ignition system, ignition module, pilot burner, 24vac transformer, needle valve for pilot fuel control, 24vac solenoid valve for main gas.
K. Im using low pressure LP at 0.4 psi. any thoughts there? Im probably going to end up with your suggested setup but ame just checking all options. thanks
 

kladue

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Here is a link to the Baso gas valve site http://www.baso.com/pdfs/catalog/automaticsinglegasvlv.pdf This covers both the low and high pressure versions of the model 19 valve. This valve uses one of the copper clad thermocouples heated by the pilot flame to keep valve open when pilot is burning. The high pressure version is rated for 25 psi, others are .5 psi. Here is a link to the Ebay site selling the Baso model 19 al for .5 psi operation at $16 each http://cgi.ebay.com/BASO-H19AL-1-GAS-PILOT-VALVE-JOHNSON-SERVICE-CO_W0QQitemZ190180222106QQihZ009QQcategoryZ53303QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem all that is needed is the thermocouple and a pilot burner
 
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