Aroma Hops & Bittering Hops

[RufusBrewer]

So I bought some Hallertau Blanc hops, @ 9.1% AA. I was thinking of using them @ 60 minutes additions. My assumption is at 60 minutes you will get mostly generic bitterness flavor, maybe some residual of the hop's varietal flavor and aroma profile.

In other words, all 9.1% AA hops @ 60 minutes will more or less (or nominally) produce the same results. (all other factors being equal). Since I am brewing a German Alt, Hallertau Blanc, pretty close to a German hop, everything should be good.

Then I start reading up on Hallertau Blanc. Just about every body identifies them as "aroma" hops. Not bittering, not dual usage, but bittering exclusive.

I get avoiding a low AA hop to keep from filling up your boil kettle with excess vegetable matter.

If I am getting 9.1% AA, and do not care if I boil off the flavor and aroma profiles, is there a problem?

 

[NotSure]

No problem. My brewshop has them for cheap, so I use them for bittering as well.

 

[BigEd]

No Problem at all. I am not familiar with Hallertau Blanc but if they have good flavor & aroma properties that does not prevent them from being used as bittering hops. While bittering hop additions are not a primary source of flavor & aroma they still will show their presence in the final beer. For that reason I think it is always a good idea to use bittering hops within the same general family of the the late addition hops. Since you are brewing a German beer and probably using a traditional German Noble hop for flavor & aroma the 9.1% AA Blanc should meld very nicely the other hops in the beer.

 

[RufusBrewer]

Good to hear I did not overlook something.

Hallertau Blanc are not strictly German noble hops. They have some new world hop in the lineage. I am not a "to style" homebrewer. I figured if there was any leakage of flavor and aroma, it could be interesting.

The malt bill is 78% munich malt, so I wanted to make sure I had enough AA power to stand up against the expected maltiness.

 

[mashpaddled]

Nothing makes a hop variety absolutely aroma only or bittering only. The division arose when breeders started trying to produce high alpha variants for bitterness because they didn't care quite how they tasted if the flavor was getting boiled out. Most hops are perfectly fine for bittering. A few hops can be more coarse with their bitterness which makes them less than ideal for some styles. Depending on your beer you may want to avoid lower alpha hops to reduce the hop matter in the beer--but for some styles you may want that. Any hop can be an aroma hop if you like its flavor/aroma.

 

[Dgallo]

I disagree with the majority here and truly believe I can certainly taste differences in my bittering hops, especially in lager and cold fermented ales. I’m not a true traditionalist by any mean but I would personally do a saaz variety or spelt for my 60 minute. You’ll get that deep spice character you taste in german ales that way. I’d leave the Hallertau Blanc for very late additions if you want it to have the most white grape notes

 

[RufusBrewer]

I disagree with the majority here and truly believe I can certainly taste differences in my bittering hops, especially in lagere and cold fermented ales. I’m not a true traditionalist by any mean but I would personally do a saaz variety or spelt for my 60 minute. You’ll get that deep spice character you taste in german ales that way. I’d leave the Hallertau Blanc for very late additions if you want it to have the most white grape notes

My assumption is with a 60 minute boil, the flavor and aroma induced is fairly minimal. As I said, I am a not "to style" home brewer. I am OK if some non traditional flavors and aromas sneak in.

I have Perle pellets I plan to use for late additions.

If I want to go with other hop varieties, it would delay my brew day by a week or two. I rather take my chances with my plan. What is the worse that can happen?

 

[Dgallo]

My assumption is with a 60 minute boil, the flavor and aroma induced is fairly minimal. As I said, I am a not "to style" home brewer. I am OK if some non traditional flavors and aromas sneak in.

I have Perle pellets I plan to use for late additions.

If I want to go with other hop varieties, it would delay my brew day by a week or two. I rather take my chances with my plan. What is the worse that can happen?

My assumption is with a 60 minute boil, the flavor and aroma induced is fairly minimal. As I said, I am a not "to style" home brewer. I am OK if some non traditional flavors and aromas sneak in.

I have Perle pellets I plan to use for late additions.

If I want to go with other hop varieties, it would delay my brew day by a week or two. I rather take my chances with my plan. What is the worse that can happen?

if your not worried about style or guidelines then go for it. This specific change Certainly won’t make a bad beer by any means. Keep me posted. I’m certainly interested

 

[PCABrewing]

Have you considered a First Wort addition?
Just curious if anybody has any opinion on that technique.

 

[RufusBrewer]

Have you considered a First Wort addition?
Just curious if anybody has any opinion on that technique.

FWH. That is all over the place. John Palmer says it is results in 110% bitterness compared to a conventional 60 minute boil.

A respected Homebrewer says he considers FWH = 20% of a 60 minute boil.

More Than or Less Than a 60 minute boil. From two respected credible homebrewers.

Then there is the question of what FWH does to the flavor or charector or nature of the bitter profile. Some say it is makes for a more "rounded and softer" bitterness.

I have done FWH hops with good results. But I have no idea how or if the beer would be different if it was a 60 min boil instead.

I have not seen any scientific or study that explains the what and why of using FWH.

 

[PCABrewing]

The "For the love of Hops" book discusses a couple of brewery tests but pretty much matches what you describe.
The part that stood out was the report that testers preferred the taste of the FWH versions but couldn't put their finger on exactly what the differences were. The author did acknowledge the lack of how and why of the flavor preference but some speculation was around conversion of some oils to soluble form that would normally boil off in a normal bittering addition.
Those soluble components survive the boil and contribute an different aspect of the hop flavor that does not otherwise get brought forward.

They also confirm IBU increase and that makes sense given the longer steep.

I am going to try it with the next batch of bitter that I brew, just cause I'm curious.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I'm a fan of first wort hops. Effective against boilover. Softer, more mellow bitterness. I perceive lower bitterness and figure FWH as a 20m boil addition to compensate. Flavor survives the boil. Biggest example for me was a batch of dry Irish stout with Northern Brewer FWH & @60m. Mint came on pretty strong.

 

[PCABrewing]

I'm a fan of first wort hops. Effective against boilover. Softer, more mellow bitterness. I perceive lower bitterness and figure FWH as a 20m boil addition to compensate. Flavor survives the boil. Biggest example for me was a batch of dry Irish stout with Northern Brewer FWH & @60m. Mint came on pretty strong.

So technique; Do you toss the hops into the empty kettle and then start the runnings? Or wait till the bottom of the kettle is covered and toss in the hops?

 

[DBhomebrew]

I BIAB. As soon as I pull the bag I drop the pellets. I should also mention that I typically use low AA UK hops. Fuggle, EKG. More biomass, more flavor compounds. Sometimes I go crazy with Challenger or Northern Brewer.

 

[RufusBrewer]

I get the feeling with FWH it is a turn it up and then turn it down proposition.

You are turning up the IBU but you are turning down the the attack or the bitter bite.

But this is anecdotal at best. Take it with a few grains of pink Himalayan salt.

 

[wetmk]

... I rather take my chances with my plan. What is the worse that can happen?

The worst that could happen? ... You make beer, cheers.

 

[bwible]

I have Perle pellets I plan to use for late additions.

I love Perle but I almost always use it for bittering only. Mostly because its been one of the highest % alpha “noble” hops I’ve been able to get for quite a while. Especially this past year. All my hallertauer hops are well under 4%. I have some that are 2.2% and 2.9%.

I recently got some hallertauer spat and that is a variety I’d never seen before or heard of before. I’m looking forward to trying those. I just have one or two more other batches to do before I get around to a lager using those.

 

[RufusBrewer]

My first choice for an Alt is Spalt hops. I just do not plan far enough ahead to get them on order.

May I can do some splits. Perle in the boil, Hallertau Blanc (not regular Hallertau) in the later additions.

Maybe some FWH? I am about a half hour from forced to make choice.

 

[bwible]

9.1% is plenty for bittering. If you have enough of them go all Hallertauer Blanc? Single hop beer and really see what it brings?

 

[RufusBrewer]

I improvised. Slight variation on my original plan.

FWH
0.5 oz Perle 6.7
0.5 oz HB 9.1

60 min
1.0 oz HB 9.1

Late additions
1.5 oz Perle 6.7
0.5 oz HB 9.1

 

[BigDave1303]

Have a look at this, Lots of info about hops.
https://beermaverick.com/hops/hop-comparison-tool/

 

[RufusBrewer]

Have a look at this, Lots of info about hops.
https://beermaverick.com/hops/hop-comparison-tool/

Very cool. Bookmarked. Thanks.

 

[D.B.Moody]

Very cool.

I think so too, but I don't understand why they list East Kent Goldings as a bittering hop instead of dual-purpose. I think there are others I'd quibble about too, but the flavor/aroma charts are very cool.

 

[D.B.Moody]

FWH.
Then there is the question of what FWH does to the flavor or charector or nature of the bitter profile. Some say it is makes for a more "rounded and softer" bitterness.

My guess is that the hops are "mellowed" by the extra exposure time to oxygen in unboiled water. Boiling drives off some of that oxygen in the water, so the hops are exposed for a longer time and to a greater amount of oxygen. I think this is why, when I did comparisons of beers put through a secondary or not, I found the batches put through a secondary "smoother" or more "mellow." This is why I like my oxidized ales and will continue to use a secondary.

 

[Miraculix]

My guess is that the hops are "mellowed" by the extra exposure time to oxygen in unboiled water. Boiling drives off some of that oxygen in the water, so the hops are exposed for a longer time and to a greater amount of oxygen. I think this is why, when I did comparisons of beers put through a secondary or not, I found the batches put through a secondary "smoother" or more "mellow." This is why I like my oxidized ales and will continue to use a secondary.

But doesn't oxygen make hop bitterness harsher?

 

[D.B.Moody]

But doesn't oxygen make hop bitterness harsher?

Not in my experience. I compared doing a secondary to not doing a secondary four times last year. I posted about this on "What does a secondary do" in the Beginners Brewing Forum.What does a secondary fermenter do?
My experience was that the taste varied from easy to detect to almost undetectable, and that we preferred the "mellower' or "smoother" taste of the secondary batches. The hoppier batches were more obviously effected. The wrap-up is post #154.
All I can say for sure is that doing a secondary does not necessarily ruin a beer. I brew mostly British style ales. Whether I'm right or wrong about why, it at least gets the oxygen police riled up.

 

[Miraculix]

Not in my experience. I compared doing a secondary to not doing a secondary four times last year. I posted about this on "What does a secondary do" in the Beginners Brewing Forum.What does a secondary fermenter do?
My experience was that the taste varied from easy to detect to almost undetectable, and that we preferred the "mellower' or "smoother" taste of the secondary batches. The hoppier batches were more obviously effected.
All I can say for sure is that doing a secondary does not necessarily ruin a beer. I brew mostly British style ales. Whether I'm right or wrong about why, it at least gets the oxygen police riled up.

That's interesting. I've had oxidised batches turning harsh, but maybe the harshness came from somewhere else, could be an infection as well or even both

Oxidation plays certainly a positive role in classic English ales, it wouldn't surprise me if they would actually benefit from a secondary, although I'm strictly against secondaries in general.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I wouldn't conflate oxygen exposure to FWH with oxygenation through secondaries. Two very different environments, processes, etc.

 

[AlexKay]

I’m a little skeptical about reports of the “quality” of bitterness: harsh vs. mellow, for instance, whether because of first wort hopping or cohumulone levels or whatever. I don’t know of any objective study (even Brulosophy!) that shows a real difference. That said, I bitter almost everything with Magnum … because of its smooth bitterness.