Are Group Buys DEAD

[giraffeman]

What happened to the Group buys? I haven't seen any in the past few year.
Did the pandemic put a end to them? or has the cost no longer made it worth it.
I know a while back the malt distributers only wanted to sell to Brewery's or homebrew shops. Any insight from people that ran them in the past?

 

[matt_m]

The group I used to do them with hasn't done one in a long time but the last few were so light on participation I'm not sure it was worth the organizer's effort. It was a bit of a haul for me and I'm really not sure it was worth participating vs stocking up at Great Fermentations when going through Indy--savings was about $10 a bag so I'd save maybe $30 per buy, but have to drive 45 minutes each way to pick it up vs stopping 5 minutes out of the way on a trip I'd be taking anyway.

That group did them through a local brewery who tacked the bags on to their order as a gesture of good will to the brewing community.

 

[giraffeman]

Matt m I suspect you are correct just not worth the effort.
It does look like the Hobby in general has decreased in the past few years, and like you said the travel cost to pick up a few sacks, (with Gas prices so high), eat away at the savings.

So A question to others that did participate in Group Buys, where do you now get your bulk grain ?
or are you just ordering what you need for each batch .

 

[suprchunk]

I am with you! I too love to buy my grains in bulk. It has also been several years since I was able to do so. Buying for each batch takes too much effort, for me, so I've kind of slowed down.

I used to get mine locally, but they had since stopped, and I moved so wouldn't be able to participate anyway.

It seems breweries don't like doing this as much as they used to. Maybe the longer they brew the more they forget where they came from? Not that I enjoyed bothering them anyway.

I'm close-ish to you @giraffeman so if you happen upon anything let me know, and I'll do the same.

 

[TheMadKing]

I stopped participating in them because I realized that buying a 50lb sack of grain to save $10 over the course of a year+ just isn't worth the hassle of storing it, plus I prefer to use more fresh ingredients.

I just used my last bit of maris otter purchased at the end of 2020

I just don't brew enough to make it worth it really

 

[suprchunk]

I'm ramping back up, so I need more. I also buy about 20 sacks at a time, otherwise it's not worth it, as you say. Those sacks will be gone in a year.

As a test, because people seem to say it a lot, I tried some years old next to some "fresh" and they were no different. Of course I haven't been a judge for 30+ years, just a brewer, and a judge later in life, but this was after brewing for a while.

I don't think the malt you are getting "fresh" is as fresh as you think it is. Unless you have lot numbers you are looking at to verify.

I could see the argument if I was watching the guy scoop up my grains and then watch him malt it and bag it, but this stuff is sitting on docks, warehouse floors, truck floors, shipped through wet/dry, cold/hot, etc.

In other words, you rarely know the provenance of what you get. And that goes for anything you don't grow at home.

 

[garvinator70]

Matt m I suspect you are correct just not worth the effort.
It does look like the Hobby in general has decreased in the past few years, and like you said the travel cost to pick up a few sacks, (with Gas prices so high), eat away at the savings.

So A question to others that did participate in Group Buys, where do you now get your bulk grain ?
or are you just ordering what you need for each batch .

i order mine from Northern Brewer

 

[giraffeman]

I don't know what Northern brewer is up to but I can't order from them .
Some how they are blacklisting users that use a VPN . their Page loads the changes to " Restricted Access Sorry, you can't visit our page when using a VPN connection
In my option that's not a great way to do business

 

[MajorJC]

where do you now get your bulk grain ?

Delta Brewing Systems | Quality, Stainless Brewing Equipment

Free shipping for orders over $65.00. I've ordered several 50# bags of malt from them and have been happy.

Read through this thread.

 

[Airborneguy]

I used to participate in group buys arranged here in the Northeast forum. I doubt it was worthwhile as we picked up pretty far from home in South Jersey, but I met some cool people at the time.

Now keep around a sack or two of base malt (usually Maris Otter) from Brewhardware but only purchase specialty grains in groups of 3-4 batches. As I get to the last bunch, I make a new order for pickup.

Bobby convinced me in a post here: “let me store the grains for you.” The savings would be minimal anyway. I’m lucky to have his place as my LHBS.

 

[pvtpublic]

I'm lucky enough to have a maltster 20 minutes down the road. Great quality, super fresh, and excellent pricing.

 

[eliastheodosis]

In my option that's not a great way to do business

In my experience Northern Brewer seems to really excel in not doing great business these days. I wasn't ordering much from them anyway and after my last two orders didn't ship for weeks with BS excuses from them I turned elsewhere. Seems like they're going through some internal changes over the last year and I am just not attached enough to bother. Better places to buy anyway in my opinion. Dellta and Brewhardware mentioned above. Great Fermentations, Hobby Homebrew, Williams, even YVH can fill in some of the gaps when I'm placing orders. I'd rather spread the love to these guys.

 

[BAF]

Delta Brewing Systems | Quality, Stainless Brewing Equipment

Free shipping for orders over $65.00. I've ordered several 50# bags of malt from them and have been happy.

Read through this thread.

I've ordered a few sacks from them. Also yeast. I don't understand how they can sell me a sack of grain shipped for so cheap and not lose money.

The last post on the linked thread expresses concern about taking advantage of the free shipping and maybe it being a mistake on their part -- but in the email for the 15% off coupon when I signed up, they specifically called out sacks of grain (it said something like "free shipping over $65, including grain sacks!"). So just in case someone else hesitates based on that.

 

[giraffeman]

Looks like a lot of people stocked up on grain with the "Free Shipping" from Delta Brewing Systems

Delta Brewing Systems | Quality, Stainless Brewing Equipment

Free shipping for orders over $65.00. I've ordered several 50# bags of malt from them and have been happy.

Read through this thread.

I just checked and the free shipping on full sacks is still valid. That's a big + as most places that offer Free shipping don't include full sacks!

 

[eric19312]

Looks like a lot of people stocked up on grain with the "Free Shipping" from Delta Brewing Systems

I just checked and the free shipping on full sacks is still valid. That's a big + as most places that offer Free shipping don't include full sacks!

Just ordered 2 sacks yesterday. Looks like order is waiting to be picked up now. Thanks for the tip.

 

[suprchunk]

Nice that they have free shipping, but it looks cooked into their prices.

And you guys are aware that NB got bought by Anhueser-Busch InBev years ago, right? That's why Jake, Mike, and Chip stopped those videos, which IMO were awesome. I miss those guys. And Chip's chop and brew isn't the same without Jake and Mike. I stopped ordering from NB that day, ABInBev has enough money.

 

[BAF]

Nice that they have free shipping, but it looks cooked into their prices.

And you guys are aware that NB got bought by Anhueser-Busch InBev years ago, right? That's why Jake, Mike, and Chip stopped those videos, which IMO were awesome. I miss those guys. And Chip's chop and brew isn't the same without Jake and Mike. I stopped ordering from NB that day, ABInBev has enough money.

Unless they've raised their prices, they're still beating everyone else price-wise for a shipped sack of grain.

And you are aware that NB was sold in 2019 and no longer owned by InBev as well, right? Not ordering from them because of that is kind of arbitrary anyway, unless you also avoid Wal-Mart and Amazon (which maybe you do, in which case, kudos!).

 

[brewguyver]

Running a group buy was a lot of fun. After overhead most people saved 20-30% (could have been 40%+ with a better location). Some of my favorite stories are still from the pickup "parties." Sadly, I ran out of time to manage it, and other folks were smart enough not to take it over .

A few lessons learned:

• The tracking and finalizing the buy was fairly difficult. It could definitely benefit from a website or software package that enables setup, tracks and manages splits, assigns orders to pallets, distributes fees like shipping, and collects payments.,
• Collecting money isn't that hard - everyone was willing to pay up front. Just make sure to give Checks/money orders time to clear, make sure you pass along any fees (e.g. if someone pays via PayPal merchant), and be aware you can max out the free "friends and family" transfers.
• A collection site is tricky, and the options can be expensive. We ran ours out of a local storage facility with a loading dock. Delivery came into the dock and the staff put it behind the locked door for transport to the storage unit. They were extremely helpful and rodent free. It added ~$1400 / year to the cost of doing group buys though.
• For a new buy/location - you need to know key details - loading dock height, acceptable truck size, etc. Our location was tight, and the max truck size was ~24 feet (e.g., short truck only). The first delivery came in a full 40' truck and had to be rescheduled.
• You need to be a business for it to be worthwhile. We survived the great purge of 2012 (2013?) because I had an LLC and a sales tax license. That means filing a tax return and monthly/quarterly sales tax forms. Bonus that in some states (like PA) food ingredients don't have sales tax, but you still have to submit your $0 filings.
• If you're going to top off a pallet, only do base malt. Everyone needs base malt. Most people don't need 10+ lbs of crystal 120.

If there was a market, I'd consider pulling a team together to build the group buy software. Based on this thread, it's probably not worth it.

 

[moreb33rplz]

grain does seem more expensive than ever these days though. It wasn't long ago the lhbs sold rahr or whatever generic 2-row for about $50 a sack, now its $75

 

[Trevor Mack]

In the northeast the LHBS that was used and sponsoring grain guys twice a year shut down all operations in MA, and thus I haven't checked to see if they still offer a grain buy at their last surviving store (if it is still operating in NY).

The grain I buy now comes straight from a malthouse in Lisbon Falls, Maine. It is a bit of a drive, but it has been enjoyable the close knit family feels of picking up malt and shooting the breeze with my suppliers. They do have a limited supply of grain, but for bulk for me that is base malts only. They did recently buy a roaster so will start offering roasted malt once setup, but I'd guess commercial is their main target and thus I don't see me ever ordering #50-55 lb sacks of that stuff... unless I split it with 10 other people.

I wouldn't mind organizing a group but in New England for those that want to do similar and source from Blue Ox, I could start a thread in a few weeks and see if there is interest.

 

[beren]

I used to participate in group buys arranged here in the Northeast forum. I doubt it was worthwhile as we picked up pretty far from home in South Jersey, but I met some cool people at the time.

Now keep around a sack or two of base malt (usually Maris Otter) from Brewhardware but only purchase specialty grains in groups of 3-4 batches. As I get to the last bunch, I make a new order for pickup.

Bobby convinced me in a post here: “let me store the grains for you.” The savings would be minimal anyway. I’m lucky to have his place as my LHBS.

Yeah you are lucky. 3 of 4 South Jersey labs closed since I started brewing 2 years ago, only one left is in Hammonton. After that it’s Philly, then love2brew almost 2h away.

 

[Airborneguy]

I’m actually closer to Love2brew but I prefer Brewhardware.

 

[sallgoodguy]

I'm with Trevor. Started buying my biggest use malts directly from a couple of maltsters close(ish) to me. Western MA/ NE CT/ Eastern NY has a few to choose from. Their prices are good, great compared to online ordering and paying shipping.

 

[jrgtr42]

In the northeast the LHBS that was used and sponsoring grain guys twice a year shut down all operations in MA, and thus I haven't checked to see if they still offer a grain buy at their last surviving store (if it is still operating in NY).

The grain I buy now comes straight from a malthouse in Lisbon Falls, Maine. It is a bit of a drive, but it has been enjoyable the close knit family feels of picking up malt and shooting the breeze with my suppliers. They do have a limited supply of grain, but for bulk for me that is base malts only. They did recently buy a roaster so will start offering roasted malt once setup, but I'd guess commercial is their main target and thus I don't see me ever ordering #50-55 lb sacks of that stuff... unless I split it with 10 other people.

I wouldn't mind organizing a group but in New England for those that want to do similar and source from Blue Ox, I could start a thread in a few weeks and see if there is interest.

i was wondering about that. There was another guy doing group buys here in Massachusetts for a while, but I haven't heard from him in a while. I may be interested in a sack or two, as long as they have pilsner - that seems to end up being the base I use for a lot of my brews.

 

[leedspointbrew]

Yeah you are lucky. 3 of 4 South Jersey labs closed since I started brewing 2 years ago, only one left is in Hammonton. After that it’s Philly, then love2brew almost 2h away.

I'm with you. Though it looks like Eric at Fermented Foods is in it for the long haul (hopefully).

 

[beren]

I'm with you. Though it looks like Eric at Fermented Foods is in it for the long haul (hopefully).

So was eastern Homebrew, but you gotta retire sometime. I miss John from keg and barrel. I picked his brain for 2 months then dove head first into all grain. 3 months after my first batch they closed. Started visiting Fish at Oaklyn and a year later they closed that location. Sometime in between, Eastern couldn’t find anyone to take over the shop so they closed too.

 

[eric19312]

Sadly the Delta free shipping deal is no longer there. Wanted $92 to ship two sacks to New York...

 

[day_trippr]

"No. It's just pining for the fiords"

 

[balto charlie]

I prefer supporting my local homebrew store, great bunch of folks and always there when I need them. Got to keep them in business.

 

[suprchunk]

I prefer supporting my local homebrew store, great bunch of folks and always there when I need them. Got to keep them in business.

They do group buys? I'd support them too, but I haven't seen decent prices (though they are as indecent as others nearby...) or group buys from MDHB.