Apple extract for flavor

[kwiley]

Has anyone used either (or preferably both) of these who can comment on them? One is much more expensive than the other. Thanks.

https://www.amazon.com/OliveNation-Natural-Apple-Extract-Ounce/dp/B004QXKQN8https://www.amazon.com/OliveNation-Green-Apple-Natural-Flavor/dp/B00PAQ9GUO

 

[dmtaylor]

No, just no.

 

[Steveruch]

What are you hoping to get from these extracts?

 

[kwiley]

Umm, ok. Denigrating sarcasm aside, I think it's reasonably acknowledged that if you don't actually use crab apples, that a lot of apple flavor falls away during fermentation, and likewise, I thought I had read in multiple different places that adding frozen concentrate or extract was a recommended way to alleviate that problem. Obviously, concentrate will have sugar in it, which will complicate the back-carbing calculations, so I figured the (also recommended) solution of using extracts would simplify things.

Here's such a reference:
https://howtomakehardcider.com/racking-and-bottling
And another one:
https://diyhardcider.com/fruity-cider
And despite the sarcastic first response above, here are references from this very forum:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...arbed-and-back-sweetened-with-xylitol.450227/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/flavoring-cider.178201/
This one has a minor recommendation along such lines in one comment. There isn't much follow-up on it I admit, but the writer of the comment isn't a newbie. He has thousands of posts and he didn't get called out for some stupid idea.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/making-cider-taste-like-apples.487111/
I didn't just make this up out of thin air.

 

[dmtaylor]

the writer of the comment isn't a newbie. He has thousands of posts

I resemble these remarks.

Is it possible you’ve found a good miraculous extract that will improve your cider? Yes, it’s possible. Go ahead and play with these and report your results. I will take back my previous comment if I am wrong.

 

[kwiley]

I was asking for input. I just wasn't asking to be condescended. Do you use frozen concentrate for the same purpose? If so, why do you consider it a more sensible solution -- and how to you control the loss of precision in back-carbing if you do it that way. Or are you against using frozen concentrate also. I'm not sure what your position is on all of this. All I know is my cider doesn't yet retain much apple flavor and I see some information online about ways of improving that -- so I asked the forum about it.

 

[dmtaylor]

I don’t use frozen extract but I know people that do, with tasty results. I am not against it. The difficulty in precision is precisely why I do not do it myself.

Your first extract linked in the original post, which is made from actual apple skins, does show some promise. If I were tinkering, I might start with that one.

The second one just looks like acetaldehyde extract. No way I would try that in a cider, but hey, I am not the one who has to drink it. Yes I am personally against acetaldehyde, but I suppose there are some out there who love it.

Overall, I am of the opinion that with the right combination of apples (crabapples are not a requirement) and yeast and fermentation temperature, you should be able to achieve plenty of apple flavor in your finished cider. I use fresh juice from an orchard or that I juiced myself, with a variety of apples (typically Mcintosh and Wealthy apples are included, both very flavorful and aromatic), and Cote des Blancs yeast at about 55-60 F for 6-8 weeks (at least), and have never been disappointed. One of my mottos is, low and slow is the way to go. Others don’t agree. But that’s all the Internet really is — a collection of idiots with opinions. In the end, find your own happiness, and ignore idiots like me.

 

[Steveruch]

Did you start with apples or with juice?
When I make a cider I use plain juice as a base and add some apples after primary fermentation is done.

 

[Maylar]

I have used concentrates from these guys in cider that was made from blah juice:

Organic Apple Cider Flavor Concentrate | Natures Flavors

A little goes a looong way. Too much and you get a Jolly Rancher.

 

[easttex]

My wife is the cider maker in the house. She sometimes uses products like this to add a little flavor to her ciders:

https://www.homebrewing.org/Natural-Apple-Flavoring-4oz_p_252.html
My advice is to go ahead and drink the batch up and don't try to bottle age it. The flavors of our fermented beverages can change over time and generally "mellow" when aged. However, these synthetic flavorings don't and can overpower an aged product to the point of being unappetizing later. Take my word on that.

 

[bernardsmith]

Not sure I fully understand the question. Is it whether using extracts will work as the sole source of flavors for a cider or whether you might add some extract to a cider (hard) to enhance the flavor? Cannot say that I have ever tried to make a wine (or cider) using ONLY extract but I have certainly used extracts to make liqueurs and have added extracts to meads (and wines) to increase complexity of flavors. indeed, I am currently planning on making a nut flavored mead with the addition of extracts: very hard, in my opinion, to extract pistachio, hazelnut, pecan and almond using water as the solvent, and using alcohol as the solvent produces what is called an extract!
All that said, could you use extracts as the SOLE source of flavor for a cider or apple wine? I don't know. Given the price of a bottle of extract and the possible loss of a gallon of wine that you could write off as a sacrificial experiment your question, kwiley, is at once quite reasonable and quite easily and inexpensively open to an empirical test. I wouldn't sacrifice 5 or more gallons but a single gallon... go for it.

 

[kwiley]

s

Did you start with apples or with juice?
When I make a cider I use plain juice as a base and add some apples after primary fermentation is done.

I'm using almost entirely the apples from my tree, which I have concluded is a graft based on the wildly different appearance of the apples coming of the two trunks, but I have no idea what they are. One batch of cider was from a load of apples off a friend's tree, again of unknown type. It's all just a bunch of relatively ordinary yard apple trees.

 

[kwiley]

Not sure I fully understand the question. Is it whether using extracts will work as the sole source of flavors for a cider or whether you might add some extract to a cider (hard) to enhance the flavor? Cannot say that I have ever tried to make a wine (or cider) using ONLY extract but I have certainly used extracts to make liqueurs and have added extracts to meads (and wines) to increase complexity of flavors. indeed, I am currently planning on making a nut flavored mead with the addition of extracts: very hard, in my opinion, to extract pistachio, hazelnut, pecan and almond using water as the solvent, and using alcohol as the solvent produces what is called an extract!
All that said, could you use extracts as the SOLE source of flavor for a cider or apple wine? I don't know. Given the price of a bottle of extract and the possible loss of a gallon of wine that you could write off as a sacrificial experiment your question, kwiley, is at once quite reasonable and quite easily and inexpensively open to an empirical test. I wouldn't sacrifice 5 or more gallons but a single gallon... go for it.

When you ask if I'm inquiring about using extract as the exclusive source of flavor, are you referring to some sort of cider that has no apple juice in it? I'm honestly not sure I understand what such a scenario would involve?

I made nine gallons from a huge pile of apples off my two-variety tree and a friend's tree last year. It's twelve months old now, some in a second fermentation, but most at least in a third. I have racked a couple off to final and started drinking them. Since each batch is one of three different varieties of apples, and since I intentionally experimented with different yeasts, they all taste very different -- but some, while "cidery" in their underlying taste, don't really have much apple in them. I've read in multiple places that people can get some apple back into it using extracts --- concentrates. I still don't see how one would be chemically much different from the other except for the added complication of sugar in the case of the concentrate.

 

[Chuckbergman]

Maybe not be helpful to the extract adding cider flavor, but earlier this year I bought a multi-pack (6) pack of Olive Nation flavoring extracts to use with hard seltzer. I used about 2oz each of strawberry and red raspberry in a 3 gal. batch of hard seltzer. It did add some nice flavor, not too overwhelming. I would think the apple extract would add some of the apple flavoring you are looking for.

I completely understand your concern of hard cider not tasting "appley" enough. I think many of us homebrewers think the hard cider should taste just like regular cider and are surprised at first when it does not. I usually back-sweeten my cider with light brown sugar or turbinado sugar and a little vanilla extract. Sometimes I juice some frozen blueberries to add some flavor (and great purple color). I keg mine so back-sweetening is a non-issue.

I suggest testing the extract on a glass of hard cider first, then use ratio math to build up to a full batch.

 

[Kees]

Wine does not taste like grapes nor does cider taste like apples. Especially if you let it ferment bone-dry. If you like to add apple flavor: why not? I never used it. I would start with very tiny amounts. Do you want to add it before during or after fermentation?
Do you now what apple varieties your friend has? Not all varieties are that suitable for making cider.

When you only have access to less suitable apple varieties I suggest you juice them, put them in PET bottles in the fridge for slow fermentation. You will have appley cider until early summer. Make sure you let the CO2 escape frequently. You will find it to be nice cider, a bit like cidre doux brewed in Normandy.

 

[RolandD]

I haven't used their Apple Extract, but Olive Nation's Chocolate Extract is excellent. I add it to my Tart Cherry Cider to make Cherry Chocolate Cider. The chocolate taste is spot on.

 

[Davedrinksbeer]

When I make apple cider I ferment the apple juice out to 1.00, then transfer to secondary where I add potassium sorbate and Metasulphite to kill off the yeast. The next day I back sweeten with 1 cup of boiling water to 3 cups of sugar till sugar dissolves and I’ll add a can or 2 of frozen orchard sprays apple concentrate for the apple flavor. I shoot for 1.020 FG which is semi sweet cider. When your back sweeting and adding apple it’s pretty much a add a little and taste. Hope this helps some. I’ve used Brewers best flavoring before, not apple but others and it works good also