Anyone tired of answering efficiency questions?

[Arpeggiator]

Hi Brewers,

I must apologize for posting yet another question about efficiency but i really feel like I'm doing something wrong or overlooking something. I have read TONS of threads about efficiency, and I'm still puzzled by my low numbers. I'll post my recipe/procedure and any feedback would be appreciated.

Yesterday I brewed an imperial porter. It seems like i get terrible efficiency once i start brewing batches over 7% abv. Taking this into account I wrote a recipe using Beersmith and factored in an efficiency of 66%

5.5 gal batch
20# 2-row
1.6# Biscuit
1# Cara-pils
.6# Black Patent
.6#Chocolate
.6# Melanoiden
.6# Vienna
25# total grain bill

I used a strike water ratio of 1.25qt/lb. and mashed at about 152-153 degrees for 60 min in a modified coleman xtreme cooler. It held temp perfectly and I vourlaufed slowly then drained tun with valve fully opened and collected about 4.5 gals wort.

Next, I sparged using 2.5 gals of water at about 172 degrees. I let it sit in the grains/cooler for about 10 min. before i vourlaufed and drained tun with valve fully opened. I collected about 2.25 gals wort.

My pre-boil volume was 6.75 gals (right where i want it). But my gravity at this point was about 1.078 (Beersmith estimated 1.087). I boiled for 60 min. and I admit i could have boiled a little harder cause i ended up with about 5.75 gals instead of the 5.5 i was looking for. I know this will shave off a few efficiency points but i ended up with a starting gravity of 1.092 and BS estimated 1.103. I haven't done the math to figure out what my exact efficiency is because I'm not that concerned. It just seems that if i enter it all into BS at 66% eff. then i should be somewhere in the neighborhood. I feel like i've done all the mash/sparge steps correctly and don't know what i can do differently. This is about the 10-12th high gravity beer i have done and all of them have suffered from terrible eff. I've played around with different mash/sparge temps. I've tried mashing for 90 and 120 min. with no better results. I don't know how some people can claim efficiency rates of 75-85% using the same process i have. Also, the brew shop i go to is trustworthy and I;m convinced the problem is not the crush. They will mill it at my request and i've asked them before to crush it to nearly sawdust and bulked with rice hulls with no better results. Hydro is also calibrated and i can't tell you how many thermos I've gone through thinking thats the problem. Again, sorry for the long post but am i overlooking something?

Thanks, cheers, and happy brewing

 

[pnj]

Try a thinner mash. My eff. went up when I went with a thinner mash. 1.50 or more quarts/lb.

 

[slothorentropy]

According to the calculation I just ran, 1.092 with a 25# grain bill is about 65-66% efficiency. If that's what you're shooting for, huzzah! That's what you got. If you're absolutely convinced it's not the crush it's probably time to start thinking about your manifold/braid situation.

 

[Homercidal]

Ok, your mashing fairly thick and doing a small sparge. This is so you can get the OG you are looking for without an extended boil.

Doing this might make your efficiency drop since you are effectively not rinsing all of the sugar from the grain. Had you sparged more, I think you could have gotten more sugar.

However, since you say you always get terrible efficiency, maybe it's something else. Are you compensating for temperature when you read your hydrometer? Is your thermometer calibrated too? Have you done any conversion testing to see that it's fully converted?

 

[waldoar15]

Big grain bills don't leave much water for sparging (as you saw). Also 2.5 gallons @ 172 probably didn't help bring a grain bill that size up in temp very much.

 

[runningweird]

+1 on the thinner mash. if you don't have enough water to grain you won't get proper conversion.

 

[Pappers_]

Big brews, and the one you were brewing with an estimated OG of over 1.100 is certainly a big beer, lower your efficiency substantially, in my experience. With my setup and process, I wouldn't expect more than 60% efficiency for a beer like that, maybe less.

. . . Also, the brew shop i go to is trustworthy and I;m convinced the problem is not the crush. They will mill it at my request and i've asked them before to crush it to nearly sawdust and bulked with rice hulls with no better results.

What is your efficiency on a 'normal' sized wort?

 

[Judochop]

Huge grain bill means your first runoff will give you more than half your target pre boil volume, and consequently you are sparging with a smaller amount of water prior to the second runoff. My understanding is that batch sparging is most efficient when those two runoff volumes are equal. You’re looking at 2:1 ratio for this beer. A thinner mash will only exacerbate the problem.

For a huge beer, you will probably need to use MORE sparge water to leech out the greater amount of sugar. Simple as that. This means you’ll end up with a larger preboil volume, which means a boil longer to get down to your usual post-boil volume.

I batch sparge as well, and I definitely notice a drop in efficiency the bigger the grainbills get. More often than not, my solution for big beers is to stay below a certain threshold of total grain and to supplement with extract late in the boil. Personally, I can’t figure out how batch spargers are getting 75-80% efficiency. (Some claim even higher.) On small beers, where I am able to infuse with significant amounts of water, I can get the mash pretty close to the optimal 170 degrees for both of my two runoffs, and I get about 70% efficiency. The bigger the beer, the lower that number gets.

 

[asterix404]

The 1.25 qt/pound is fine. The sparge water however should be much larger in volume, like the same amount of water that you used for the strike and then you remove enough to get you up to the 6.5g. You want the dense water to get the enzyme activity through the roof due to so much starch. If you are really concerned do a 10# pale ale batch with pale 2-row and see how close you hit to 1.054. Adjust crush based on these results.

 

[Arpeggiator]

Thanks guys..some great feedback. Personally, I can live with the terrible efficiency, but it bugs me in the back of my mind when I hear claims of 80% efficiency or higher...like I'M doing something wrong. I guess in the future I will do a larger sparge volume since it seems to be the general consensus. One more question though, when talking about sparge temps there seems to be debate. I know you want to bring the grain bed close to 170, but sometimes this requires using water close to boiling. Good or bad? Like i said, I've heard debate either way...what do you think?

 

[stevedasleeve]

I see this as pretty good efficiency for such a big beer. 80% efficiency is for 1.050 beers, maybe, and absolutely not imperial anything IMHO. Of course I batch sparge so what do I know?

YMMV and clearly does, also WTF of course,
Steve da sleeve

 

[waldoar15]

One more question though, when talking about sparge temps there seems to be debate. I know you want to bring the grain bed close to 170, but sometimes this requires using water close to boiling. Good or bad? Like i said, I've heard debate either way...what do you think?

You've got 20 some lbs of grain in your MT. That's a lot of mass to bring up in temp with just 2.5 gallons. I didn't run the numbers, but....I doubt if it's going to hurt a thing if you use close to boiling water. Check your brewing software.

 

[pnj]

I spent a lot of money and time chasing my bad effiency issues. I had an increase when I upped my STRIKE water to around 1.50 quarts per pound. Which leaves less sparge water.

My last beer I added more sparge water and did a two hour boil. I got 80 Plus % efficiency. Two hour boils suck though...

 

[Judochop]

I had an increase when I upped my STRIKE water to around 1.50 quarts per pound.

I do not understand how mashing thinner would increase lautering efficiency.

Preboil volume is constant and the amount you’re trying to achieve from each of your two runoffs is the same, regardless of what you’re starting with in the mash. The thicker the mash, the more top-off water will be required in order to reach half your preboil volume from the 1st drain. And if you top-off with hot or boiling water to increase the temperature of the mash prior to the drain closer to 170, it can only help with extraction.

That said, maybe mashing thinner actually improves conversion efficiency, and so that’s where the better efficiency numbers are coming from?

But back to the OP’s latest question. It will often be the case that the 1st infusion (aka: top-off) water will need to be boiling in order to bring the mash up to 170. And for most beers, even that won’t do it. Beersmith has an infusion tool which I use to calculate how hot my 1st infusion needs to be to bring the mash up to 170. Unless I’m doing a session beer, it always tells me boiling. I heat my water for the second infusion to 185 every time, and I find that takes me right to 170 +/- 2 degrees.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

I batch sparge as well, and I definitely notice a drop in efficiency the bigger the grainbills get. More often than not, my solution for big beers is to stay below a certain threshold of total grain and to supplement with extract late in the boil. Personally, I can’t figure out how batch spargers are getting 75-80% efficiency. (Some claim even higher.) On small beers, where I am able to infuse with significant amounts of water, I can get the mash pretty close to the optimal 170 degrees for both of my two runoffs, and I get about 70% efficiency. The bigger the beer, the lower that number gets.

This is spot on advice. I always keep some Plain Light DME on hand when brewing high gravity beers. I usually have some sugar on hand to supplement too, as most big beers do use some simple sugars also, and it doesn't hurt to throw a pound or two of sugar into a big beer. Another option on a beer that big is to do two mashes and collect first runnings from each with a thin mash.

 

[asterix404]

Adding boiling water slowly is fine, you just don't want to add it all at once. Also I have found that between 175-185 will get me to 168-172. You generally don't want to add boiling water unless you stir it constantly or you are doing an infusion mash.

Oh btw, a longer lauter will mean a higher efficiency and a better grain bed to avoid stuck sparges when you are doing things with wheat.

As a base line, I can typically get 85% because I condition my malt and crush super fine. If I do a decoction mash I can get 95-98%. Always keep in mind however that the more grain you use, the lower the efficiency. I am very very happy to get 75% with a 90GP stout, which of course is a single infusion. Anyway, the difference in price between 65% and 85% is about 2$ per batch... when this starts to matter is when you start dealing with 1200 pounds of grain per batch, at which point it becomes 200$ or more.

 

[Judochop]

Adding boiling water slowly is fine, you just don't want to add it all at once.

Why not? Assuming you're doing so as gently as possible while stirring, why not pour all 1-2 gallons in at once?

Oh btw, a longer lauter will mean a higher efficiency and a better grain bed to avoid stuck sparges when you are doing things with wheat.

I think the general wisdom is that longer lautering will not affect efficiency (neither positively nor negatively) when batch sparging, which is the method being discussed here.

 

[BWN]

I don't know the science behind it but I increased my ratio to 1.5 qts./lb and my efficiency increased. I also tried 2 sparges of equal amounts but found that 1 sparge works the best. Denny was posting in a thread about efficiency and suggested that I do that and since I have done it efficiency has increased. I guess if you take the advice from someone who knows what they are doing it's probably not a bad idea.

 

[Judochop]

I don't know the science behind it but I increased my ratio to 1.5 qts./lb and my efficiency increased. I also tried 2 sparges of equal amounts but found that 1 sparge works the best.

Regardless of how small a grain bill you're using and how 'uneven' your 2 runoff volumes are, you always go right from mash to drain?

What kind of efficiency are you getting on smallish beers (<1.045) and how does it differ for biggish beers (>1.060)?

 

[shafferpilot]

When the gravity goes over 1.080 your efficiency either goes down or you have to increase the water volume. Here are your choices:

Increase grain bill - Slightly higher monetary investment and just plain feels wasteful. Also, eventually you run out of room in the cooler and the only way to get higher SG's is to either get a bigger cooler or see below.

Longer boil - If you use the same volume/pound of water as you do on smaller beers, you'll get roughly the same efficiency as those smaller beers.... but you'll have 8 gallons of wort. Strike a compromise between low efficiency, 60 minute boil AND higher efficiency, longer boil. Personally, when I go big, I like to hit decent efficiency with 3 sparges... yep, I said 3. And boil for however long it takes to get back down to my normal boil volume. The propane isn't that expensive and shipping 50lb grain sacks to my house is.

 

[BWN]

Regardless of how small a grain bill you're using and how 'uneven' your 2 runoff volumes are, you always go right from mash to drain?

What kind of efficiency are you getting on smallish beers (<1.045) and how does it differ for biggish beers (>1.060)?

I get in the 80's for small beers and will get in the 70's for bigger beers. The biggest beer I have ever done was 1.065. I did a Belgian wit Sunday that was supposed to be 1.038 at 75% efficiency and I had that before I even started to boil.

 

[samc]

I agree with the points that focus on 25lbs of grain being sparged with so little water of too low a temp. When I did batches using 25-35lbs of grain (mostly 10 gallon batches) I usually sparged in with 195-200F water.

Next, I sparged using 2.5 gals of water at about 172 degrees.

Don't worry about other peoples efficiency numbers. Take a look at the recipes of some of the well known award winning brewers. They aren't posting recipes with 80-85% numbers, but rather 70% which is more realistic IMO.

 

[Judochop]

Personally, when I go big, I like to hit decent efficiency with 3 sparges... yep, I said 3. And boil for however long it takes to get back down to my normal boil volume.

What is your starting point in calculating your water amounts?

ie. Do you lock-in a larger-than-usual preboil volume and divide by 3 to determine your infusion amounts? Do you predict your mash run off, infuse the same amount 2 more times and accept whatever that amounts to in preboil?

 

[asterix404]

How is adding an additional pound of grain even with shipping compared to burning through a 20# tank? Also how much was the pot to hold the tremendous amount of liquid?

You want to add boiling water slowly to avoid hot spots, this does include pouring out the water while stiring but dropping 2g of boiling water over your grain, I would think at least, produces hotspots and you might get tannin extraction. This I would not know, I have only slowly poured the same volume of sparge water as strike water over the grain.

I think the long lauter does increase efficiency though to be honest I am not sure why. I know that it is very helpful to avoid a stuck sparge because the husks all sink to the bottom and create a very nice bed over your screen, mesh, tube, etc. Also I found with a very long lauter that I don't have to tip up the MLT to get that last little drop of water out, it's very dry as is.

Basically you do want an equal amount or more of sparge water to do a batch sparge. Drain slowly to avoid a stuck sparge. If you need to increase efficiency, it is much cheaper to add an aditional pound or two of grain. Think about it this way... a 55# bag is about 55$ for me to get at my LHBS, even with shipping of say... 8$ and a more expensive price a 55# bag is not more than 80$. So that comes to 1.45$ per pound... add an additional 3$ to your bill reduces the amount of propane which I can get for about 20$ for 20 pounds. Using this metric is fairly straight forward. You have to use less than 3 pounds of propane to get the same benefit as adding 2 whole pounds of grain.

Not to dispute you too much, but where did you get the

When the gravity goes over 1.080 your efficiency either goes down or you have to increase the water volume.

I thought that basically you don't want your mash too thin because then the enzymes don't work as well and the acidity increases. Anyway, just curious... I might have to go back and edit my notes, but I have done several 90+GP beers at 75% efficiency with a single infusion between 1qt/lb and 1.25qt/lb. I mash at that rate, and sparge at that rate and then have a fairly long boil. I have not gotten to the point of stopping a sparge when I hit 6.5G yet but when I do it will quickly cut down boil times.

 

[Begin2Brew]

From my recent experience I would ask are you having a conversion or efficiency issue?

I have done 13 batches this year and in two recent ones I noticed a drop in my efficiency. I did a pale ale and a hefe and both came out around 60%. I started looking into why. I found a few things. One, both batches I got lazy and stirred the mash only at the beginning and only once. Two, my conversion test seemed to be flawed. I used Iodine and drywall for the test. Found out I receive more accurate results adding the wort then the iodine.

Anyhow my numbers were off from other batches and I thought I had an efficiency issue but my last two batches I stirred the mash every 5 minutes and changed my conversion test. Both batches came in at over 83%. So I really had a conversion issue not an efficiency issue.

 

[shafferpilot]

What is your starting point in calculating your water amounts?

ie. Do you lock-in a larger-than-usual preboil volume and divide by 3 to determine your infusion amounts? Do you predict your mash run off, infuse the same amount 2 more times and accept whatever that amounts to in preboil?

Well, I use steam infusion to raise mash temps so I don't have the problem of adding lots of water throughout the process. But, the sparging is still the same. The point is that I DON'T lock in a preboil volume. Instead, I lock in a per sparge volume and if the second runnings are well above 1.010, I sparge again. If the third running is still above 1.010, I may sparge again depending on what I'm feelin that day and just how big I'm going. Basically rather than monkeying with the mash volumes, I prefer to let the preboil volume float and boil back down to the boil volume I want and continue as normal. Keeps efficiency and conversion in perfect check. BTW, anyone who wants to do this needs to pay attention to sparge PH and mashout temp very carefully as you will be flirting with astringency.

 

[shafferpilot]

How is adding an additional pound of grain even with shipping compared to burning through a 20# tank? Also how much was the pot to hold the tremendous amount of liquid?

You want to add boiling water slowly to avoid hot spots, this does include pouring out the water while stiring but dropping 2g of boiling water over your grain, I would think at least, produces hotspots and you might get tannin extraction. This I would not know, I have only slowly poured the same volume of sparge water as strike water over the grain.

I think the long lauter does increase efficiency though to be honest I am not sure why. I know that it is very helpful to avoid a stuck sparge because the husks all sink to the bottom and create a very nice bed over your screen, mesh, tube, etc. Also I found with a very long lauter that I don't have to tip up the MLT to get that last little drop of water out, it's very dry as is.

Basically you do want an equal amount or more of sparge water to do a batch sparge. Drain slowly to avoid a stuck sparge. If you need to increase efficiency, it is much cheaper to add an aditional pound or two of grain. Think about it this way... a 55# bag is about 55$ for me to get at my LHBS, even with shipping of say... 8$ and a more expensive price a 55# bag is not more than 80$. So that comes to 1.45$ per pound... add an additional 3$ to your bill reduces the amount of propane which I can get for about 20$ for 20 pounds. Using this metric is fairly straight forward. You have to use less than 3 pounds of propane to get the same benefit as adding 2 whole pounds of grain.

Not to dispute you too much, but where did you get the


I thought that basically you don't want your mash too thin because then the enzymes don't work as well and the acidity increases. Anyway, just curious... I might have to go back and edit my notes, but I have done several 90+GP beers at 75% efficiency with a single infusion between 1qt/lb and 1.25qt/lb. I mash at that rate, and sparge at that rate and then have a fairly long boil. I have not gotten to the point of stopping a sparge when I hit 6.5G yet but when I do it will quickly cut down boil times.

Relax dude. I'm not criticizing your methods, just offering alternatives.

My "tremendous"ly expensive pot is a keggle and it cost $20 + a cutoff wheel. I get propane tanks filled (yes a few places still do that) for $9 and they last a long time cause it's only used for boiling. All other water heating is electric.

Besides, if the option is to increase grain at 60% efficiency or boil for 45 minutes longer at 80% efficiency; I prefer the latter. And like I said, when you run out of room in the mashtun, you can't add anymore grain and have to do something different.

 

[Judochop]

I lock in a per sparge volume and if the second runnings are well above 1.010, I sparge again. If the third running is still above 1.010, I may sparge again depending on what I'm feelin that day and just how big I'm going.

Gotcha. Couple more questions, if you don’t mind.

How do you calculate your locked-in sparge volume? (If it even is a calculation.)

Why must the additional sparge volumes (#2 and #3) have to match the volume of the first? Say if your runnings after #2 are above 1.010, but just a wee bit, why not save yourself some water and some boiling time and throw in half the volume of the previous 2 sparges? Too hard to stir so thick?

 

[shafferpilot]

Gotcha. Couple more questions, if you don’t mind.

How do you calculate your locked-in sparge volume? (If it even is a calculation.)

Why must the additional sparge volumes (#2 and #3) have to match the volume of the first? Say if your runnings after #2 are above 1.010, but just a wee bit, why not save yourself some water and some boiling time and throw in half the volume of the previous 2 sparges? Too hard to stir so thick?

No calculation. Just experience, but I shoot for always the same volume/pound of grain. The thickness/thinness of the mash is the important part.

You answered the second question yourself didn't you It takes enough water to float the grain, stir, and effectively dissolve additional sugar.

Is it necessary to split the sparge up that much to get good efficiency? Not always, no... In my case, this is what works best.