Anyone have trouble with The grind from midwest?

[crowbait]

I have tried to study countless hours on here while switching from extract to all grain. I apoligize if I am beating a dead horse but I can't seem to figure out what I am missing. The best I have been able to pick up is about 56%. Today was my far by worst. I ground my own grain so I know that wasn't the problem. Could I grind twice?

12 lbs. 2 row rahr.
1.5 lb. specialty grains.
1 Tbls. 5.2 mash

4 gallons mash water into my cooler at about 165. Settled in about 154-155.
Held 154 for 60 minutes and hardly no conversion so went to 90 minutes. Did a no sparge and added 4.5 more gallons that brang the temp to 170. Cycled 4 gallons before I started to drain to my kettle. Ended up with 7 gallons at 1.024.
Still need to boil down to 5 gallons, but that will still only put me in the .040 range if that won't it?

I think I'm getting worse with the 5.2 mash. Other weird thing is I had .5 lbs. of chocolate and my mash before sparge still looked like miller light. Is that grind, water chemistry, or am I missing something? I am pissed in a good way. I am hooked. Thanks for any help you could lend.

 

[crowbait]

Just to clarify, I grind my grain at Midwest. Since they packege and sell ther own kits I would assume they would have it set up fairly efficient.

 

[Snowhere]

Using a store’s mill is not grinding your own as you do not control the gap. I would expect any LHBS to set their mill pretty loose to ensure no complaints from their customers. Even so, I would expect a better efficiency then what you are seeing. I have my own mill and I set it on the tight side. I average 85% and I would expect a OG more like 1.080 with your recipe. You must have something else wrong to end up with the 40-45% efficiency I calculated that you received.

Can you clarify your info? What specialty grains did you use? You say no sparge but you added 4 gallons? Did you just dump the 4 gals in your mash tun? Did you stir up your grain bed? What are you using for a mash tun? How did you monitor your mash temp?

For comparison, I add 1-2 gallons of 180f water to end my mash and stir it real good. I let this sit for 10 minutes to let the grain bed settle and then I fly sparge with 5 gallons of 180f water with great results.

 

[crowbait]

12 lbs 2 row, 8 oz. 40L, 4 oz. chocolate, 4 oz. bisquit, 2 oz special b.
I put for gallons at 165 into a converted cooler mash tun, added 13 lbs. grain and stirred for a few minutes. It settled in about 155 and sat within 1 degree for a hour. At that point I could tell I didn't have much conversion because it just tasted like grain, thermometer wouldn't even be sticky. At 90 minutes I just dumped 4.5 gallons more water and stirred well to equal 8.5 gallons since I don't have a sparge system yet, which brang it up to 170. I then cycled 3 or 4 gallons before I started my runoff. My run off equalled 7 gallons. I know my efficiency won't be the best with my system I have for now, but it doesnt seem to wan't to convert before I even sparge. My spent grain isn't sweet at the end of draining either. I've used 100%hard water out of my outdoor faucet and then other batches I've used all softwater from inside. Neither way seems to give me better results. My LHBS grinds and sells kits on the internet. They sell them based on 70% eff. I think. I would think it would be in there best interested to grind to hit the efficiency the product was sold and calculated with. Could my water be so out of wack that I am not getting conversion? My temps seem to be on.

Thanks snowhere!

 

[toronadoxp]

You're not the only one. When i jumped to all grain i used my LBHS (High Gravity) and was getting the exact efficiency that the midwest recipes stated. After doing two batches i wanted to try Ferocious IPA and picked up a Australian Ale from midwest. When i brewed both of those i got way lower than the recipe (but they were still drinkable). I had noticed when i looked at the grains pre mash they were kernel like....not what i was used to. After brewing both i decided not to use them for my All Grain batches. They were great for the Extract kits but i can get my local beer place to grind them correctly on brew day with expected efficiency. So don't fret! They're mills only barely crack the hull.

 

[SwampassJ]

Try a different store and see if the crush is the actually problem. I wouldn't use softened water for mashing since your softener replaces Calcium with 2 Sodiums and you need some Calcium in the mash for the enzymes to work better.

Ditch the 5.2ph buffer, I used it and it didn't do squat for my water since my water is really horrid. All it adds is extra Sodium and Potassium? I think was what the water report one brewer posted for it.

 

[Colby]

At 90 minutes I just dumped 4.5 gallons more water and stirred well to equal 8.5 gallons since I don't have a sparge system yet, which brang it up to 170. I then cycled 3 or 4 gallons before I started my runoff. My run off equalled 7 gallons.

This part is a little unclear to me? So you did not drain the mash tun prior to adding your sparge water of 4.5 gallons? I don't have any experience with that method, but it's possible there is room to improve.

First, check your thermometer for proper calibration. Second, try draining the mash tun prior to adding the sparge water. I would also suggest that you separate your sparge water addition into 2. So instead of adding 4 gallons at once, sparge twice with 2 gallon amounts.

 

[bucfanmike]

im a bit confused by the "cycled 4 gallons" part as well. If you are batch sparging, which i believe you are, are you draining your mash before you sparge? If not then I could see where you are leaving alot of sugar behind. I have made many all grain batches from midwest kits and always hit their expected OG.

My batch sparge goes like this.
1. strike 1.25 gal/lb stir, settle in at desired temp 148-154 depending on particular style
2. wait 60 mins (stirring once or twice during this time)
3. vorlauf into a pitcher until clear, then drain completely
4. use sparge water at 180 to get my grainbed up to 170, stir and wait 15 mins
5. vorlauf and drain again.

now i am just moving to 10 gallon batches and due to cooler size i split my sparge in 2 batches, 180 for 1st sparge, 170 for second since the grainbed is already up to temps.

Mike in Duluth

 

[xeerohour]

You're not the only one. When i jumped to all grain i used my LBHS (High Gravity) and was getting the exact efficiency that the midwest recipes stated.

Slight OT, but what average efficiency are you getting with the grains at High Gravity? Mine seems to hover right around 70%.

 

[jborho]

what kinda manifold are you using?

 

[Yooper]

First, you probably had conversion just fine- tasting the wort isn't going to tell you if you had conversion or not! Use some iodine or Iodophor to test, but don't go by taste!

Secondly, ditch the 5.2. It's ineffective at best.

Next, I'm not really familiar with no-sparge but I'm sure that it's not helping your efficiency at this point. Could you slowly explain the steps first, so I can "picture" what's going on? That will really help us to be able to pinpoint any issues.

Lastly, can you purchase some spring water or reverse osmosis water? I'm not sure what you mean by hard water from the hose and water from inside (don't you have the same water supplier in your house?) but that seems like it could be a culprit as well.

 

[crowbait]

Thanks for all the help guys lets see if I can make sense of all this. This is about my 6th batch of AG. I have been mashing with about 4 gallons water into about 13 lbs. grain. After 60 min. mash I have stirred and then added another 4.5 galllons to my tun without draining. I then vorluaf 4 gallons then start draining into my kettle. Outside water I have hard water, Ph 7.6-7.8, Alkalinity 200-230ppm. Inside I have a water softener set at 25% hardness. I have tried brewing with both waters and it hasn't seemed to effect my eff. much. So for a little better eff. I should completely drain my first mash then add my 4 gallons sparge stir and the drain again? Could you mash with hard to get better conversion, then sparge to rinse the grain better kinda like trying to rinse soap off with hard takes forever but softwater rinses much better? I think my problem with this last batch might have been the crush. Usually my tun and my thermometer and paddle are sticky with sugar and I can taste my spent grain and it still sweet. This time nothing was sticky after my mash and the spent grain wasn't sweet at all. I tossed it out back next to the pile from my last batch and you can tell the difference in the way it looks that it wasn't crushed very well. Could I run it through the grinder twice? I need to get a bigger kettle before I can make improvements to my sparge method because I can't boil down that much volume.

How are those Red Wings doing Yooper??

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for all the help guys lets see if I can make sense of all this. This is about my 6th batch of AG. I have been mashing with about 4 gallons water into about 13 lbs. grain. After 60 min. mash I have stirred and then added another 4.5 galllons to my tun without draining. I then vorluaf 4 gallons then start draining into my kettle. Outside water I have hard water, Ph 7.6-7.8, Alkalinity 200-230ppm. Inside I have a water softener set at 25% hardness. I have tried brewing with both waters and it hasn't seemed to effect my eff. much. So for a little better eff. I should completely drain my first mash then add my 4 gallons sparge stir and the drain again? Could you mash with hard to get better conversion, then sparge to rinse the grain better kinda like trying to rinse soap off with hard takes forever but softwater rinses much better? I think my problem with this last batch might have been the crush. Usually my tun and my thermometer and paddle are sticky with sugar and I can taste my spent grain and it still sweet. This time nothing was sticky after my mash and the spent grain wasn't sweet at all. I tossed it out back next to the pile from my last batch and you can tell the difference in the way it looks that it wasn't crushed very well. Could I run it through the grinder twice? I need to get a bigger kettle before I can make improvements to my sparge method because I can't boil down that much volume.

How are those Red Wings doing Yooper??

First, I'd recommend choosing a mash thickness of 1.25-1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain. "About 4 gallons" won't cut it! It's important for mash conversion and pH to do it correctly although in this case, 4 gallons was ok. Also, don't use water out of the softener- too high in sodium and "stuff". The alkalinity of your water without the softener is too high. I'm in a similar boat- so I use 50% RO water from the store and 50% tap water with great results.

Anyway, so in this case, you'd use 19.5 quarts of water (1.5 quarts per pound of grain). Mash for 60 minutes, stirring very very well at dough in. Check the temperature in several places, and if it's different, stir again.

Then, after 60 minutes, vorlauf a quart or two to "set" the grain bed a bit and drain it all out. Measure the amount you get out. In this case, you'd get out right around 3.4 gallons of runnings. If you're starting with a 6.5 gallon boil, you'll need 3.1 gallons of sparge water. I like to break it up into two additions of equal amounts, but you could do it all at once since it's not that much. So, add 3.1 gallons of 180 degree water to the drained grain. Stir like it's your job! Vorlauf a quart or two, then drain it all out. Check the volume- you should now have 6.5 gallons of runnings total.

That should work just fine.

The Wings are nice and rested- haven't played since last week! Hopefully they'll do as well in the next round!

 

[crowbait]

Thanks Yooper! I will try your water setup. It looks like it's time to download some software to get things dialed in better. Do you mix your water 50-50 through out? Or do you mash with RO and then sparge with tap?