Anyone have any experience with this?

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day_trippr

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The intrinsic issue with using a coil heater in a static colloid is the resulting localization of applied heat.
The advantage of HERMS/RIMS is there's lots of movement so one can better approach a uniform temperature through the entire grain bed.

So, if you were to also recirculate the mash you'd be in relatively decent shape, but now you have two pumps doing the job that a single pump on a HERMS or RIMS can do.

Wrt verdigris there isn't anything new to be learned. It's not good for you.
Beyond that the frankly large copper exposure would not be good for the beer as it provides a strong pro-oxidative factor better avoided.
An SS hex would be better in that regard, though its thermal conductivity would be significantly lower...

Cheers!
 
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baldm79

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The intrinsic issue with using a coil heater in a static colloid is the resulting localization of applied heat.
The advantage of HERMS/RIMS is there's lots of movement so one can better approach a uniform temperature through the entire grain bed.

So, if you were to also recirculate the mash you'd be in relatively decent shape, but now you have two pumps doing the job that a single pump on a HERMS or RIMS can do.

Wrt verdigris there isn't anything new to be learned. It's not good for you.
Beyond that the frankly large copper exposure would not be good for the beer as it provides a strong pro-oxidative factor better avoided.
An SS hex would be better in that regard, though its thermal conductivity would be significantly lower...

Cheers!
Out of curiosity is the copper a downside in a CFC? I saw that mentioned in the northern Brewer forum, but I’ve never thought of copper having an effect on oxidation.
 

day_trippr

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While good ones can be spectacular performers I would consider a copper CFC to be sub-optimal wrt avoiding oxidative factors.
There's no getting around beer traversing a really long length of copper tubing being an pro-oxidative factor.

fwiw, I have eliminated copper and brass from my brewery, which indicates a commitment and a prejudice...

Cheers!
 
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baldm79

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While good ones can be spectacular performers I would consider a copper CFC to be sub-optimal wrt avoiding oxidative factors.
There's no getting around beer traversing a really long length of copper tubing being an pro-oxidative factor.

fwiw, I have eliminated copper and brass from my brewery, which indicates a commitment and a prejudice...

Cheers!
Interesting. I had heard the argument against brass, but never copper. Where did you find your information on the negative effects of copper?
Not questioning validity, just curious to hear an explanation, and I don’t want to ask you to type it all out..
 

day_trippr

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I gonna blame that on the Low Oxygen Brewing folks.
My copperphobia is definitely on them ;)
But if you google "copper reactive oxygen species" you'll find tons of confirmation...

Cheers!
 

mongoose33

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Avoiding the copper reactions is why LODO brewers will include Brewtan-B in their strike water and wort--it will offset the Fenton reactions that are produced with the copper.

I'm also trying to eliminate copper in my setup--actually have done it, though at the cost of my beloved Jaded Hydra. I've asked the Jaded people if they'd make a SS immersion chiller, they said they're looking at it.
 

Hwk-I-St8

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Avoiding the copper reactions is why LODO brewers will include Brewtan-B in their strike water and wort--it will offset the Fenton reactions that are produced with the copper.

I'm also trying to eliminate copper in my setup--actually have done it, though at the cost of my beloved Jaded Hydra. I've asked the Jaded people if they'd make a SS immersion chiller, they said they're looking at it.
When I get a beer the exhibits oxidation issues, or fail to produce great tasting beers, you might be able to pry my Hydra out of my hands. That day has not come nor do I forsee it arriving anytime soon....
 

mongoose33

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When I get a beer the exhibits oxidation issues, or fail to produce great tasting beers, you might be able to pry my Hydra out of my hands. That day has not come nor do I forsee it arriving anytime soon....
This is actually one of the conundrums as I've explored LODO brewing. I don't recall specific oxidation flavors in my pre-LODO beers, so it's not exactly clear where this all goes.

I've switched to stainless to get the copper out of the equation, but I haven't done it enough to know if there's a significant difference. The Brewtan-B is supposed to mitigate the Fenton reactions that come from copper; what I don't know yet is whether there's a perceptible difference between stainless-chilled and copper-chilled-with-BtB beers.

And that's one of the interesting things about this. If one can't perceive oxidation, does it matter if we do LODO brewing? I'm not sure.

For me, the jury is still out. There is clearly a much richer tasting wort going into the boil kettle using LODO techniques. What isn't quite as clear is whether the beer coming out of the fermenter is significantly better. And if if I can't see that difference, then what's the point?

And yeah....my Hydra sits, forlorn in the box, waiting another call to arms. We'll see. Perhaps BtB is the answer. Or perhaps it doesn't matter. Or perhaps it does.
 

Genuine

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Plus, I've made some light summer beers and haven't noticed any off flavors due to a copper IC.
 

mongoose33

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Plus, I've made some light summer beers and haven't noticed any off flavors due to a copper IC.
The effect, as I understand it, is that the fenton reactions produce staling compounds, i.e., promoters of oxidation. That is, the beer will oxidize or stale faster than it would have otherwise. It's not clear if those reactions would produce noticeable off-flavors early in the beer's life.

At least--again--as I understand it.

I suspect this influence would be more important for hoppy beers, and those which stay around a long time. I have noticed things like a fading of the hop presence in a California Common, but I haven't done a side-by-side to see if that makes a difference w/ and w/out copper.

BTW, I have a Jaded Hydra, but recently bought a stainless immersion chiller to do some testing. That said, the use of Brewtan-B is supposed to offset whatever processes produces those Fenton Reactions.
 

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