Anybody have any REAL info about carapils?

[kanzimonson]

I don't trust anybody's opinion on carapils anymore.

People claim that using carapils is the same as mashing higher. I counter with the fact that many commercial breweries use this malt in their APA and IPA. Why would they pay for a malt that costs more than two row when they could just mash higher?

People also claim that carapils adds sweetness. I'm not sure if this is true, or if it's a case of "people think that higher FG automatically means sweeter beer."

Really, I think the question is coming down to something like "Is carapils more like malto-dextrin or crystal 10"?

 

[BigEd]

I don't trust anybody's opinion on carapils anymore.

People claim that using carapils is the same as mashing higher. I counter with the fact that many commercial breweries use this malt in their APA and IPA. Why would they pay for a malt that costs more than two row when they could just mash higher?

Good question. I don't think it's the same thing. I use Weyermann's CaraFoam, their version of CaraPils aka dextrin malt and combine it with a low temperature mash. That way I feel I can control the overall profile of the beer by combining a dry finish from the low temp mash with a touch of body building dextrins from the CaraFoam.

People also claim that carapils adds sweetness. I'm not sure if this is true, or if it's a case of "people think that higher FG automatically means sweeter beer."

IMO it does not add "sweetness". Dextrins are not fermentable and are also not perceived on the human tongue as sweet. The taste is "quasi-sweet" at best, it is the oversize dextrin molecule that makes its' impact on the texture and body of the beer.

Really, I think the question is coming down to something like "Is carapils more like malto-dextrin or crystal 10"?

Mashing CaraPils creates malto-dextrin. While CaraPils/CaraFoam/Dextrin malts are technically in the crystal family they inhabit their own little segment of the specialty malt world. They come in at 2-3L typically and compared to a light crystal or CaraHells 10L do not contain the actual sweet sugars found in those malts.

 

[samc]

"What makes Carapils® Malt from Briess the top performer in the dextrine-malt category? Try it. You'll find that it does a unparalleled job of consistently increasing foam, improving head retention and enhancing mouthfeel without adding flavor or color to your beer style. Carapils® Malt from Briess owes its superior performance to a proprietary process not duplicated anywhere within malting industry."

 

[Northcalais40]

I've been having less head than I want, and adding carapils to help. What amount would you recommend for a 5g 1.060 beer. I've been adding .5 lbs to my last few.

 

[ayoungrad]

People claim that using carapils is the same as mashing higher. I counter with the fact that many commercial breweries use this malt in their APA and IPA. Why would they pay for a malt that costs more than two row when they could just mash higher?

Mashing at a higher temperature will IN GENERAL decrease the fermentability of the wort as a result of incomplete conversion to fermentable sugars but will also result in a sweeter final product. So it changes the taste. As others have mentioned, Carapils at least claims to increase mouthfeel without changing taste.

 

[kanzimonson]

I'd really love to get more info about how they produce it but sounds like that's proprietary. I just imagine it's like a very light crystal malt, but I know it's a slightly harder kernel so maybe they dry it differently.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I don't trust anybody's opinion on carapils anymore.

People claim that using carapils is the same as mashing higher. I counter with the fact that many commercial breweries use this malt in their APA and IPA. Why would they pay for a malt that costs more than two row when they could just mash higher?

People also claim that carapils adds sweetness. I'm not sure if this is true, or if it's a case of "people think that higher FG automatically means sweeter beer."

Really, I think the question is coming down to something like "Is carapils more like malto-dextrin or crystal 10"?

Mashing higher yields a less fermentable wort but those sugars could have been made fermentable by mashing lower. The dextrins you get from Carapils/Carafoam can't be broken down by alpha/beta amylase.

I think it gets a bad rep because it is seen by some as a 'crutch' for getting better head. You don't need it to get great head and if you have other issues that prevent good head it won't magically give great head. But it does have it's place just like any specialty malt.

 

[kanzimonson]

Ah, that makes some sense. Any idea how these starches/sugars have been made "unmashable"? Something in the drying/kilning process damaging the starches?

On that note, are people right to say that carapils adds sweetness like a crystal malt does? After all, crystal malts have some sugars that are unmashable, and some of these (not all of 'em though) are perceived as sweet on the tongue.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Ah, that makes some sense. Any idea how these starches/sugars have been made "unmashable"? Something in the drying/kilning process damaging the starches?

On that note, are people right to say that carapils adds sweetness like a crystal malt does? After all, crystal malts have some sugars that are unmashable, and some of these (not all of 'em though) are perceived as sweet on the tongue.

I'm not sure how they make Carafoam/carapils such that the sugars can't be broken down. Maybe it's just a result of having conversion take place in a solid endosperm. I just assumed they were limit dextrins in which case they actually could be broken down but at a lower temp than we typically mash or steep at (<140* F IIRC).

I don't think Carafoam adds sweetness...but then again I don't think mashing higher adds much sweetness either.

 

[erikpete18]

I know a while back I munched on a few grains of the Carapils and they did taste a little sweeter than regular 2-row, but that might have all been in my head. Either way, it was no where near that of a crystal, and at the amounts that most of us use in a batch I wouldn't worry about any additional sweetness. I've been subbing carapils for wheat in a few batches, and seem to get decent results if you decide that you're anti-carapils. Again, at the levels I'm using I don't get any wheat flavor, but I like to convince myself I'm adding some proteins for head retention :cross:

 

[kanzimonson]

I don't think Carafoam adds sweetness...but then again I don't think mashing higher adds much sweetness either.

I'm 100% with you on this.

There are so many things I don't understand about beer sweetness. Here are some facts that I believe:

-the higher the OG, the more likely your beer is to be sweet
-the more fermentable your wort, the less sweet it is
-the more adjuncts you use, the more likely your beer is to be sweeter
-the lower your mash temp, the more starches will be converted to fermentable sugars, which lowers sweetness

Here are some questions I still have:

-can sweetness be tempered with bitterness (or roastiness for that matter)
-are there any unfermentable sugars that are created in the mash that the human tongue perceives as sweet
-are we sometimes "tricked" into thinking a beer is sweeter (maybe because it has sweet aromas, or fruity characteristics)
-when you use a strain with low attenuation and it generally tastes sweeter, what types of sugars are being left behind

I have many more questions but this is a good start

 

[pfooti]

Crystal malts (as I understand it) are more-or-less mashed during the stewing process. The clever bit is that while the enzymes convert the starch into sugar, they do so inside the grain and don't release that sugar into a wort. What you're left with is a fairly sweet piece of grain that is then kilned to dry out and brown via caramelization and maillard reactions to whatever colors you need (40L, 60L, etc). All crystal malts will add some unfermentable sugars to the wort.

Carapils works the same way; it's stewed and converted, and then kilned. It's just stewed at a fairly high temperature, denaturing the beta amylase, which in turn means there's no useful substrate for the limit dextrinase to work on. So you're left with a lot of dextrins. Personally, I don't get a lot of good foam from carapils; if I want body and head retention, I'll use an unmalted grain like flaked barley or wheat. I suppose that's what cara-foam is for.

You can mash higher to attain the same effect (or you can add malto-dextrin powder). There are a couple of issues with really controlling fermentability via mash temperature (and thickness), and it works out for most home brewers that it's pretty much easier to just add some carapils to the brew. The biggest issue really is accidentally overshooting your fermentability target and ending up with a soupy beer (happened to me on my first 1gal biab experiment - silky smooth but undrinkable, really). There's also probably a fundamental difference between mashing your entire grain bill at a high enough temperature to adjust the final gravity and just having the body-enhancers to up the gravity.

 

[kanzimonson]

That's interesting that you feel homebrewers are better served by using grains to add body. I feel the same way.

I haven't done any experiments along these lines (like the same recipe brewed twice, one mashed low and one high) but I've had this suspicion that mash temp doesn't have a great effect on beers when you're going for heavy body and mouthfeel. I do believe, however, that mashing low yields a more fermentable wort.

Speaking of soup, I make my pumpkin ale with 5% carapils and 5% oats and it's crazy thick - when you pour it from the tap, there's a brief moment of stillness in the glass, and then the CO2 seems to laboriously fight its way out of solution and claw its way to the top. I mash pretty low on it but I suspect these two grains (and its OG of 1.085) make for a much thicker beer.

 

[menschmaschine]

The dextrins you get from Carapils/Carafoam can't be broken down by alpha/beta amylase.

Why not? I don't understand why, in a single infusion mash of, say, the low 150s°F, alpha amylase wouldn't break down long-chain unfermentable sugars which would subsequently be broken down further by the remaining beta amylase before it becomes too denatured.

I think there may be some misinformation and homebrew lore out there regarding Cara-pils. I wonder if some of it stems from steeping it in extract brewing. In any case, I think it's more complex of a topic than is typically discussed. It seems like a lot of times homebrewers want things to be black and white, when there is really a lot of gray area and conditional outcomes.

It's been a while since I've seen a malt analysis for Cara-pils and I can't say I've really studied the science behind Cara-pils, but here are two things that made me question the standard information out there about using it:

-Increased Foam Stability:

Does using Cara-pils really increase the end content in the beer of the proteins that make up foam (primarily Protein Z and LTP1)? All I can say is that I've brewed quite a few batches of the same type of beer (Helles) using various amounts of Cara-pils (from none to 12%) with all other things being fairly equal and noticed no difference in foam formation/stability. In fact, I did notice that when I reduced or eliminated a protein-related rest, the foam formation/stability was significantly increased, regardless of the amount of Cara-pils used.

-Decreased wort fermentability:

Coinciding with the above, I noticed no difference in wort fermentability regardless of the amount of Cara-pils used. To increase my suspicion, I noticed that Horst Dornbusch's book about brewing Helles has recipes that call for up to 20% Cara-pils. Then another brewer on here (can't recall the name) brewed Helles with ~20% Cara-pils and it attenuated just fine.

I realize that none of this is hard evidence, but it is worth considering in my mind. So, I'm leaning towards thinking that Cara-pils is conceptually just like any other crystal malt. I.e., it does add dextrins, but they are broken down in the mash to the point that the alpha/beta amylase can break them down before becoming denatured too much. It may take a significant amount of Cara-pils and a higher mash temp to result in a noticeably higher dextrin content in the wort.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I can't remember where I read it (more than once) mensch but it was from a maltster. There are links in sugars that can't be broken down by alpha/beta (eg - the alpha(1-6) link). I just assumed it was limit-dextrins. Why these 'dextrins' are formed during the 'conversion within the husk' that cara malts undergo I can't say.

 

[Doog_Si_Reeb]

Here's a pretty good article from Brew Your Own:
http://byo.com/component/resource/article/Issues/148-June 1997/89-add-body-to-your-beer

Here's a clip from that article that may answer a few of your questions:

Dextrin malt. Dextrin malt is made from malted barley and is a type of crystal malt. Also known as cara-pils or cara-crystal, dextrin malt contributes body to beer, aids in foam retention and beer stability, and gives the beer additional smoothness and sometimes a sense of sweetness. All this is accomplished without affecting the color or flavor of the beer.

Dextrin malt is stewed at higher temperatures than crystal malt, resulting in the creation of a larger proportion of dextrins. Then it is kilned at very low temperatures to avoid darkening, rendering it tasteless and relatively colorless. Therefore, it may be used on both pale and dark beers. Use dextrin malts for 5 percent to 20 percent of total grist to achieve full advantage for light-colored beer and 2 percent to 10 percent of total grist in dark beers. Because dextrin malt has been enzymatically degraded during processing, it does not need to be mashed with enzymatic grains and can be used in partial grain mashes.

 

[DeathBrewer]

Dextrin malt can definitely add mouthfeel. Best example in my experience was when a buddy used a high proportion in his California Common. It was noticeably chewy and he made it a regular recipe. It can aid in head retention, but so can Crystal 10L, wheat, and many other grains. I rarely use the stuff.

As for mash temperatures, it doesn't necessarily mean that the perception of "sweet" will come through, but your beer will be more DRY if it is fermented at lower temperatures and more "sweet/malty/dextrinous" or something to that effect if you mash at higher temperatures.

This, of course, is also affected by what grains you use. Corn, for instance, contains highly fermentable sugars and will help dry the beer out. Carapils will leave residuals even when mashed at lower temperatures and will give you that mouthfeel which has been discussed.

Yeasts can also make a difference. British style yeasts generally flocculate fast and leave some residuals in the beer, while Belgian yeasts are high attenuators.

Perceived "sweetness" can come from grains regardless of mash temp. Lower crystal malts tend to give a sharp, crisp sweetness to the beer, while darker crystals can lend caramel or toffee-sweet notes. Dark base malts like munich or vienna give a "malty sweetness" to the beer, which is noticeably different than actual sugar sweetness.

My $0.02.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

+2 for the two previous posts. I still wonder; if mashed at 133*-140* F does limit-dextrinase break down the dextrins from Carapils/foam?

 

[menschmaschine]

I can't remember where I read it (more than once) mensch but it was from a maltster. There are links in sugars that can't be broken down by alpha/beta (eg - the alpha(1-6) link). I just assumed it was limit-dextrins. Why these 'dextrins' are formed during the 'conversion within the husk' that cara malts undergo I can't say.

Sounds logical, but if that's true, I still don't understand why we (or at least I) don't see a correlation between higher percentages of Cara-pils in the grist and decreased wort fermentability.

 

[DeathBrewer]

Perhaps its the proportion of the carapils and/or the fact that some of the sugars derived from it are fermentable. It adds mouthfeel and has lots of long-chain sugars, but that doesn't mean that every molecule in the grain is the same. Some of it can be converted.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I sent off a question to Briess ("Why isn't Carapils further broken down by enzymes in the mash?") and this was their response:

Carapils contain a large amount of soluble enzyme-resistant-dextrin, similar to resistant starch. You should have no problem finding literature on the science behind resistant starch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch). These dextrins are not formed in the mash, they are formed in the kernel as a result of the production process. The process of making caramel malt is different from that of carapils. Caramel malt production involves developing sugars in the kernel which result in the formation of color and flavor upon drying. Aside from this I can tell you that it is a natural process involving no chemical additives, more specific details are proprietary.

 

[kanzimonson]

cool stuff! thanks!

 

[RyanK2]

I think it gets a bad rep because it is seen by some as a 'crutch' for getting better head. You don't need it to get great head and if you have other issues that prevent good head it won't magically give great head.

This took me WAY off into left field. =D