Any TIG welders that can help me?

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GreenMonti

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to make you feel better I will post this hideousness... .025 SS sheets... it did not go well at all... warping buckling etc... reg Steel razor blades were WAY easier than this...

View attachment 594437
You just need proper fit up and fixture. I have a manual weld cert on 0.016” thick sheet that allows me to manually weld down to 0.011” thick. Maxstar welder, no pulse settings, 1/16 tungsten, 0.020” filler, number 10 shade in a cheap $20 helmet.
Leave a gap in the material in the shape of a V and as you weld the V will close in front of your puddle due to weld shrinkage.
This does require a fixture. A very simple fixture for short (6” ish) welds. However it does take some setup. Longer welds just take more thought and setup.
 

wyowolf

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You just need proper fit up and fixture. I have a manual weld cert on 0.016” thick sheet that allows me to manually weld down to 0.011” thick. Maxstar welder, no pulse settings, 1/16 tungsten, 0.020” filler, number 10 shade in a cheap $20 helmet.
Leave a gap in the material in the shape of a V and as you weld the V will close in front of your puddle due to weld shrinkage.
This does require a fixture. A very simple fixture for short (6” ish) welds. However it does take some setup. Longer welds just take more thought and setup.
what kind of fixture?
 

cegan09

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GreenMonti, I agree that equipment makes less of a difference than the welder. A good welder (and I'm not claiming to be a pro by any stretch of the imagination) can make good welds with fancy or very basic machines.

My logic on starting with thick material is this: I teach complete noobs how to get started welding at a local makerspace. Typically people who have never touched a welder, or have basic knowledge with a MIG at best. It takes them a good while to get used to the motions of TIG. They get caught in this loop where they can focus on 2 things at a time but ignore the 3rd. So they'll watch their arc length and their filler, but forget about the foot pedal. Then all of a sudden they have a puddle growing out of control so they shift attention and ignore arc length, so now they're wandering up to a 1/2" arc. Repeat.

When I teach I stick people on 0.09" coupons and bits of 0.083" square tubing. It's not monster thick, but it is thick enough to resist the insta-burn through that really thin stuff will do. I tell them to stick to that stuff until the muscle memory starts to build up and they can run a number of beads in a row with minimal issues. Once they can do that, move on to material that's similar to what they want to work with for their project. I don't tell them to stick to the thicker stuff until they're a pro, just until they acclimate to the motions of TIG. In just about every case this helps them learn faster than if they try to jump right into some more specialty material.
 

GreenMonti

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GreenMonti, I agree that equipment makes less of a difference than the welder. A good welder (and I'm not claiming to be a pro by any stretch of the imagination) can make good welds with fancy or very basic machines.

My logic on starting with thick material is this: I teach complete noobs how to get started welding at a local makerspace. Typically people who have never touched a welder, or have basic knowledge with a MIG at best. It takes them a good while to get used to the motions of TIG. They get caught in this loop where they can focus on 2 things at a time but ignore the 3rd. So they'll watch their arc length and their filler, but forget about the foot pedal. Then all of a sudden they have a puddle growing out of control so they shift attention and ignore arc length, so now they're wandering up to a 1/2" arc. Repeat.

When I teach I stick people on 0.09" coupons and bits of 0.083" square tubing. It's not monster thick, but it is thick enough to resist the insta-burn through that really thin stuff will do. I tell them to stick to that stuff until the muscle memory starts to build up and they can run a number of beads in a row with minimal issues. Once they can do that, move on to material that's similar to what they want to work with for their project. I don't tell them to stick to the thicker stuff until they're a pro, just until they acclimate to the motions of TIG. In just about every case this helps them learn faster than if they try to jump right into some more specialty material.
In this case, there is no foot pedal involved. That motor function isn’t going to get in the way here.
In this case all that is needed is a setting and they can concentrate on the gap flowing the the materials together. I suggest doing autogenous welds first. If need be two hands can be used to guide the torch.
If they blow a hole, try again. Either faster or lower amperage. After the two can be fused together without filler. Bring that into the mix knowing more power will be needed to accommodate the extra material. How one adds the filler will also effect the heat settings.

I’ll post more later and I’ll put up pics about a simple fixture after work.
 

GreenMonti

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Hopefully this get the juices flowing as what can be done based on extra pieces in your garage/shop.


A2B61342-FBCF-475D-97F0-CDC03DEE8580.jpeg
FDFA2D11-DFC6-43D9-BC5D-FFC2F6D8E0CD.jpeg


Missing from the pics is clamps. Or, if so inclined the top pieces could be bolted to the bottom pieces by drilling and tapping the bottom pieces.
Also ideally the edges of the top pieces would be beveled to aid in access to the weld joint. The basic idea is in the pics though. I simply don’t have nor do I keep much scrap or bits and pieces around to clutter up my small space at home. You can get as fancy or basic as you want. This doesn’t “have” to be aluminum either. It will cool best being either aluminum or copper if your made of money. Haha.
I’ll try and get a pic of the same idea just a fancy version tomorrow.
 

wyowolf

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Hopefully this get the juices flowing as what can be done based on extra pieces in your garage/shop.


View attachment 595291 View attachment 595292

Missing from the pics is clamps. Or, if so inclined the top pieces could be bolted to the bottom pieces by drilling and tapping the bottom pieces.
Also ideally the edges of the top pieces would be beveled to aid in access to the weld joint. The basic idea is in the pics though. I simply don’t have nor do I keep much scrap or bits and pieces around to clutter up my small space at home. You can get as fancy or basic as you want. This doesn’t “have” to be aluminum either. It will cool best being either aluminum or copper if your made of money. Haha.
I’ll try and get a pic of the same idea just a fancy version tomorrow.
Ok that makes sense...do you purge back with argon as well? Or does enough get trapped in clamp?
 
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So my dad has some nice metal square tubing stadium seats that were 17in wide. Where we use them they have a new policy of 16in, so we cut them down and TIG welded them back together. It's around 17-18 ga metal, did the 3 C's (clean X3), set the machine to 50amps. It wasn't pretty but got the job done. What I learned was need a pedal (scratch start was very difficult in odd positions), need finer control of amps (pedal) on thin material ( heat would build and have a blow out so would weld a tad, break arch let cool and go again), pre and post flow would be awesome (forgetting to turn on gas happened a few times, once forgot to turn off gas), need way more than 10-12 sharpened tungstens (stratch start and stick ruined more than dipping).

Going to cut some 16ga coupons and work on fillet/butt/lap joints. My lap joints on the thin material were the best part. Thin material is quite a bit more difficult to manage.
 

GreenMonti

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Ok that makes sense...do you purge back with argon as well? Or does enough get trapped in clamp?
If it’s stainless, yes gas would be required. In which case you can use tape to close off the ends and make a chamber. Just remember that an exit is needed for the backing gas.
I can do another pic tomorrow showing the details of this and some small pointers for success so the backing gas doesn’t interfere with the weld.

In the case of the mild steel lap weld, backing gas isn’t required. Just clamp it to the table and go. Things will be just fine.

Moving the pieces (blocks, chill bars, fixture pieces, whatever you wat to call them) closer or further from the joint ends will obviously give more or less support/cooling. My statement of a manual weld cert on .016” thick material was done on a fancy version of this with a .100” inch gap between the bottom pieces.
 

GreenMonti

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So my dad has some nice metal square tubing stadium seats that were 17in wide. Where we use them they have a new policy of 16in, so we cut them down and TIG welded them back together. It's around 17-18 ga metal, did the 3 C's (clean X3), set the machine to 50amps. It wasn't pretty but got the job done. What I learned was need a pedal (scratch start was very difficult in odd positions), need finer control of amps (pedal) on thin material ( heat would build and have a blow out so would weld a tad, break arch let cool and go again), pre and post flow would be awesome (forgetting to turn on gas happened a few times, once forgot to turn off gas), need way more than 10-12 sharpened tungstens (stratch start and stick ruined more than dipping).

Going to cut some 16ga coupons and work on fillet/butt/lap joints. My lap joints on the thin material were the best part. Thin material is quite a bit more difficult to manage.

Any pics of the weld joints? We’re there gaps in the cut down pieces? What type of material?

Scratch start definitely reduces tungsten life. Common info is to strike the arc on a scrap copper piece next to the weld joint and then move off the copper and on to the joint.

Harder to manage thin material in what way?
 
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Schiersteinbrewing, if there’s anything you’d like to see just ask. I’ll do my best to show you and help you. I’m a 5 1/2 hour non stop plane ride from you but I’m willing to help the best I can. I just need to know what your questions are.
Thanks, just trying to learn right now. I knew it was a more involved process going into it, just trying to get feedback from persons more experienced.
 
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Mild steel tibubv. I will try and grab pics tomorrow, no gaps, sticks were the biggest issue, blow outs were next and then porosity.

Managing my heat input on thin material was difficult. If I turned the amps down to 35-40 it was hard to get a puddle going and the pace was pretty slow. If I cranked the amps to 60 it would blow out very quick. 50 amps was the sweet spot. Unfortunately I don't have any scrap copper yet.

The seats were powder coated if that helps.
 

GreenMonti

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Thanks, just trying to learn right now. I knew it was a more involved process going into it, just trying to get feedback from persons more experienced.

The little things matter. It’s a bunch of little things that add up to build success with TIG. They all come together and make people smile.
 

GreenMonti

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Mild steel tibubv. I will try and grab pics tomorrow, no gaps, sticks were the biggest issue, blow outs were next and then porosity.

Managing my heat input on thin material was difficult. If I turned the amps down to 35-40 it was hard to get a puddle going and the pace was pretty slow. If I cranked the amps to 60 it would blow out very quick. 50 amps was the sweet spot. Unfortunately I don't have any scrap copper yet.

The seats were powder coated if that helps.
We’re you welding through the powder coating?
I’m guess these welds were in a T joint fashion? If so, you can keep the arc focused on the wall (vertical portion) of the tube and let the puddle walk or work it over to the flat portion that’s being joined. I hope that makes sense.
 

GreenMonti

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It looks to me like your focusing the heat in the wrong areas for the joint being welded. Those look like your trying to place the heat right in the middle of the joint every time.
Your second pic is what I was asking a T-joint. Square tube has a radius edge inherently giving you a gap.
 

GreenMonti

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This guy does a good job explaining how things are intertwined to each other. A lot better than I could type out in an explanation. It isn’t any one thing, they play together.


After watching this video, I ask. What is better? Thick or thin for practice? The answer to me is, you have to move relative to the material. You don’t get to go slow on thick material. If thin is what you want to weld, start there. Use a block to hold them down like I showed for a lap joint. I’ve even spent a little time watching 2 of the other guy’s videos (not the ones above) posted. He shows the same block I showed to hold down the lap joint coupon.

Also, schiersteinbrewing. Notice where the heat is being placed at about the 11 minuet mark. It’s biased towards the base plate. Not the center of the joint. Same goes for square tubing T joint. Bias the heat on the full tube as you have so much more of a heat sink on the full tube. Your essentially trying to weld on the edge of the tubing wall.

Another thought I had which the other guy shows (can’t remember his name) is try holding the filler in the weld joint and just wash over it till you get better. This is not as easy as it seems. Not for me anyway. However, I bet this would have helped you a lot in the seating situation since your still trying to get the hang of it. Just wash the materials together.
 

wyowolf

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Pretty good explanation of how different heat settings effects the weld...
 

GreenMonti

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Pretty good explanation of how different heat settings effects the weld...
I agree. From a “look at all these” kind of way.

Does his point of view help you more so than the guy I posted? I ask only for me to learn from a teacher stand point. Everyone has their own reality and their own take away’s from things.

I deleted quite a long post to remove my opinion and just end here....
 

wyowolf

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I agree. From a “look at all these” kind of way.

Does his point of view help you more so than the guy I posted? I ask only for me to learn from a teacher stand point. Everyone has their own reality and their own take away’s from things.

I deleted quite a long post to remove my opinion and just end here....
I wouldnt say Helped more... just a slightly different perspective, because they are basically saying the same thing.

Why would you delete your post? Any and all information is helpful I think! You have been tremendously helpful, to me at least, sometimes as beginners it takes saying the same thing several times or ways to finally get it, being a dad teaching geometry i am realizing this :)
 

GreenMonti

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I deleted it cause when I reread it before posting. It seemed to me like I was being critical of Jody. Which isn’t my intention at all. It was kinda late and I was tired. I didn’t feel like retyping it.
 

wyowolf

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I deleted it cause when I reread it before posting. It seemed to me like I was being critical of Jody. Which isn’t my intention at all. It was kinda late and I was tired. I didn’t feel like retyping it.
Well no one is above criticism thats for sure... esp me!

having watched too many hours to count of these I understand the basic concepts of puddle control and what its supposed to look like, I can see it in my mind, its just going to take practice practice and more practice, certainly i wont get anywhere near those kinds of welds, i simply dont have that much time to perfect it, as long as it holds and looks reasonable then im ok with that..

one more i enjoy watching, mostly cause he is a reg guy and i can relate to that... and he's hilarious...

 

GreenMonti

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This old Tony. That guy is funny.
Probably a good thing his kids figured it out before slide 38. Haha
 

GreenMonti

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Holy crap wow...that's perfect
Haha. Yet, you can see how the simple blocks get really close to the same thing and, functionally. The blocks will get you the same place. Plus a little tape, and a diffuser.

Of which.........I use an air muffler for a gas diffuser on my flood purges. 1/8” pipe diffuser (I think) welded to 1/4” stainless tubing and I grind off the pipe thread. Not required but, I just don’t like to see the threads.

93B86A3C-34AE-4826-A245-7B534DA6CD85.jpeg
 

wyowolf

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so let me ask a stupid question. These are all flat welds, what about in a brewery situation where you are most likely welding tubing to a kettle?
 

GreenMonti

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so let me ask a stupid question. These are all flat welds, what about in a brewery situation where you are most likely welding tubing to a kettle?
How do you mean?

Are you referring to the purge or the fixture?

Or welding out of position?
 
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wyowolf

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How do you mean?

Are you referring to the purge or the fixture?

Or welding out of position?
both, i mean I'm light years from doing the fixture you pictured...just wonder how it will work if i needed to weld a port on a kettle?
 

GreenMonti

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both, i mean I'm light years from doing the fixture you pictured...just wonder how it will work if i needed to weld a port on a kettle?
It won’t. That fixture or the blocks is simply a way to weld plate coupons together and help with warping. Also hold them in place. That’s why I showed plate coupons in both the block pics and the fancy fixture pics.

The diffuser on the other hand. That will help weld ports on kettles or other things.
 

GreenMonti

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I was thinking today. For those who don’t know, due to exposure or whatever the reason. After all, no one is born an expert. That diffusers are made out of all different things, and for various reasons.

A gas diffuser can be made from a worn out 2 series TIG torch collet body. Like this. Just fashion on a piece of tubing (drill it out) and plug the center hole with solder or jam a piece of filler in it. Gas will exit out of the side holes
31F4FBC0-B396-4990-9C8E-935E3FDCDC78.jpeg

5C77C47C-81D2-498C-BFC2-0947C77F1464.jpeg


This is another diffuser of many that I’ve made. I use this one to flood purge projects the same as the above air muffler diffuser. I also put a cup on it and back gas small areas either by hand or clamping it in a flex post to hold it where I want it. It’s just an old gas lens

FE39F443-AA73-4F23-8446-471CF6B56F29.jpeg

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wyowolf

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I didnt get a chance to this week but def will today and tomorrow.... will post horrific results.
 

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