Another DIPA for review...Willamette and Amarillo?

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bannerj

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3 gal recipe right now. I might up it to 5 if I feel good about this. I'm about to pick my willamette's and want to FWH with them, flavor/aroma from the amarillo?

I'm just not sure if those two will go together.

2lb 7 oz Pale 2 Row 30.8%
2lb 7 oz Marris Otter 30.8%
[put that in because I'm not sure I have enough marris to cover all the base malt]
13 oz Rye Malt 10.3%
13 oz flaked rye 10.3%
5.2 oz carapils 4.1%
5.2 oz Crystal 40 4.1%
4.1 oz aromatic 3.3%
8 oz corn syrup 6.3%

1.25 oz Willamette leaf FWH 60 min
1.25 oz Willamette leaf 45 min
1 oz amarillo 20 min
1 oz amarillo 10 min

Not sure about dry hopping...any willamette or just amarillo?

Thanks for your feedback.
 

CBMbrewer

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Not sure how those two will pair together. Since you won't be getting any flavor or aroma from the fwh/60min and 45min, I would stick to a high alpha acid bittering hop. That way you might not have to use all of it and can save some for another batch.
 
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bannerj

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My situation is that I'm a little giddy to use my willamettes right off the bine for something. I'm trying to use what I've got here at the house without a trip to the store. But if this recipe isn't worth it, then I'll wait.
 

peterj

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Not sure how those two will pair together. Since you won't be getting any flavor or aroma from the fwh/60min and 45min, I would stick to a high alpha acid bittering hop. That way you might not have to use all of it and can save some for another batch.
Yeah I agree with this ^. Bittering with Willamette seems like a waste to me. Especially homegrown Willamette that I'm sure you would like to taste. Willamette is pretty low alpha so not great for bittering. Much better for flavor and aroma.

I would bitter with something neutral at 60 then add equal parts Willamette and amarillo late kettle additions. I think that would be a pretty great hop combo. Fruity citrus from the amarillo with some nice earthy floral from the Willamette.
 

sconnie

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Yeah I agree with this ^. Bittering with Willamette seems like a waste to me. Especially homegrown Willamette that I'm sure you would like to taste. Willamette is pretty low alpha so not great for bittering. Much better for flavor and aroma.

I would bitter with something neutral at 60 then add equal parts Willamette and amarillo late kettle additions. I think that would be a pretty great hop combo. Fruity citrus from the amarillo with some nice earthy floral from the Willamette.
Second that. Willamette is fairly mild for a DIPA, but using a good amount in conjunction with Amarillo should work great. I'd for sure dry hop, and add some later kettle additions as well; maybe throw some Willamette at the end of the boil. Also of note, I've never grown hops but my understanding is if they are not dried you need to use a lot more, like 5 times more, to account for the extra water weight in fresh hops.
 

stevedasleeve

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Initially I was thinking why Willamette - a hop I have never found a use for because it is so unintrusive (!) but I see it's your crop - so I would go for it. I think you will need more though to bitter this. What is your OG - looks like maybe 1.075 depending on your efficiency? I'd double the hop amount for this myself and try it as a 3 gallon batch. Definitely dry hop with Amarillo. My preference FWIW is hoppy beers over nuanced or so called "balanced" beer so take this with that bias in consideration.

Steve da Sleeve

Oh and the aromatic malt IMHO is a bad idea.
 
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bannerj

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Very helpful. OG will be 1.072.

Why ditch aromatic in something like this. I'm guessing it will mess with my rye malt & flake?

So if I go with a much higher AA hop, I'd be better off I guess. I was initially thinking I'd bitter with Amarillo but it's so expensive and I really prefer the grapefruit of it.

What I'm still struggling to understand is why DIPAs are slammed with so much hops? I looked at the Pliny the Elder recipe. If I put that into beersmith, it gets about 230 IBUs. I thought we couldn't taste anything over 80 or 120 at the most? Going over 200...is that all just aroma?
 

peterj

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Very helpful. OG will be 1.072.

Why ditch aromatic in something like this. I'm guessing it will mess with my rye malt & flake?

So if I go with a much higher AA hop, I'd be better off I guess. I was initially thinking I'd bitter with Amarillo but it's so expensive and I really prefer the grapefruit of it.

What I'm still struggling to understand is why DIPAs are slammed with so much hops? I looked at the Pliny the Elder recipe. If I put that into beersmith, it gets about 230 IBUs. I thought we couldn't taste anything over 80 or 120 at the most? Going over 200...is that all just aroma?
I think the aromatic is fine in there. It will add some maltiness to it. I'm not sure how it interacts with rye though. Maybe stevedasleeve knows something about it that I don't since I don't have any personal experience doing it.

Yeah don't waste the amarillo on bittering either when there is something cheaper that you can use less of because it would be higher AA.

Yeah I don't think you can taste anything more than around 100 IBUs like you said. And also I've heard that it isn't physically possible to put more than around 100 IBUs in any beer. The wort becomes saturated with iso-alpha acids and you can't put any more than that in solution. That doesn't happen with flavor and aroma though which is why they are so slammed with hops. Late additions will also add IBUs but that's not the point of them. You need a pretty substantial hop presence to stand up to the large malt bill.
 
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bannerj

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Great great...okay, I can get the hang of this.
 
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bannerj

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Okie...new question and maybe I need to go digging for the answer. I've been confusing AA and bittering with flavor and aroma. Novice! So is there any chemistry I should follow to see how potent a hop variety is in terms of flavor or aroma?
 
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