Another Control Panel wiring question

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hammis

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ok, so here is my wiring schematic. please let me know if you see any glaring errors or possible fixes. I would like to NOT die in the process of building this thing

 
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hammis

hammis

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i guess i should have mentioned some more details. The input will be a 20a 120V line on a designated breaker. I dont have access to anything else right now. I wont be running the 2 heaters at the same time, so my max draw will theoretically be 16a @ 120 V (the 2000W element which will be in my kettle). for now 2000W will be enough as i dont plan on doing more than 5 gal batches...yet
 

SweetSounds

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ok, so here is my wiring schematic. please let me know if you see any glaring errors or possible fixes. I would like to NOT die in the process of building this thing

It looks pretty good, with a few suggestions...

- Lose the PID on the pump - It won't do you any good. A plain old switch will work just fine, and you can't "throttle" a pump electrically - you throttle a pump with a valve on the output port.
- Get a double-pole switch on your pain power input - Switching both the hot and the neutral isn't necessary, but it is a good idea.
- I would replace the switches between the hot and the 2 element SSRs. Get a single-pole, 3-throw switch and wire it "On-Off-On" IOW "HLT-Off-BK" so you can't possibly fire both elements at the same time.

Remember, a PID regulates the power of the elements by adjusting the power over time. In other words, if the cycle time is 2 seconds and the PID is going at 50%, your element is at 100% for 1 second, and 0% for one second.
If both PIDs are set for 50%, and both fire at the same time, that's 100% of both elements - And a popped breaker ;)
 
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hammis

hammis

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haha, wow, in my tiredness i did make the 3rd PID go to the pump, wow.......

alright, ok so to clarify, PID #1 will control the HLT, PID #2 will act as a temp sensor for the mashtun (not shown in diagram, i will update sometime today) and PID #3 will control the kettle.

seriously though, thanks for pointing out my dumb mistake, funny part is i showed thed diagram to one of my electricians here at work tonight to double check it and the he didnt catch my mistake either, lol
 

SweetSounds

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haha, wow, in my tiredness i did make the 3rd PID go to the pump, wow.......

alright, ok so to clarify, PID #1 will control the HLT, PID #2 will act as a temp sensor for the mashtun (not shown in diagram, i will update sometime today) and PID #3 will control the kettle.

seriously though, thanks for pointing out my dumb mistake, funny part is i showed thed diagram to one of my electricians here at work tonight to double check it and the he didnt catch my mistake either, lol
You could look into a PWM circuit for the BK - And save the $$ you would spend on the PID. You can get a PWM circuit for something like $9.00 - Less if you build one yourself with a 555 timer IC.
There is no reason to have a temperature sensor on your BK - It's going to get to 212 and start boiling. At that point you'll have to switch the PID to manual to keep your boil under control. A PWM is just easier, since you can't automate the BK (Unless your BK is so ginormous that boilover isn't a concern ;) )
 
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hammis

hammis

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alright so between the 2 topics i have going i've decided to change my power source from 20a to 30a (dryer outlet) and rework the wiring drawing i had. Here is the new one
 

Bjornbrewer

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the single most important thing you are missing is a GFCI somewhere in the system. It should be a GFCI breaker that you use so it covers the entire system at one point.

...you missed the PID on the kettle...or the PWM circuit...or whatever control device to the two SSR's on the kettle.

What size elements are you going to run now if you have 240V available?
 

SweetSounds

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alright so between the 2 topics i have going i've decided to change my power source from 20a to 30a (dryer outlet) and rework the wiring drawing i had. Here is the new one
Looking good.
A few things,
There is no neutral at your heating elements. The only place you'll use the neutral is at the pump (Or any other 110v stuff) The elements only need both "Hot" wires, and ground.
(Check your manual, of course) But you can power the PIDs with 110v or 220v. I don't see the neutral going to your PIDs so I'm assuming you just forgot to draw it in. So you can either wire them to the two Hot's, or carry the neutral to each one for 110v.

As a matter of fact, if you get a 220v pump, you won't need the neutral at all, and can use a 3-wire plug, and cheaper 3-wire cable.

It's still my preference to switch both the hot and the neutral on 110v circuits, and both hots on 220v circuits. But that's up to you.

Looks like you're on the right track though!
 
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hammis

hammis

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since i already have a 2000W element i think i will use it for the HLT and i will get a 3500W or maybe 4000W for the kettle. For the kettle, someone on another thread i had going made a very good point in stating, that "you need your kettle to boil, so there is no real need for a PID to control it", if i do a 3500W element it should be more than enough to keep a 5gal batch boiling (without scortching) and it will be as simple as let it run at 100%.

Or is my electrical knowledge incorrect in thinking i can use 2 SSR's for the kettle without a PID? And can you explain to me what a PWM circuit is? i've read about it online but i dont see how i would incorporate this into my panel

Thanks!
 
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hammis

hammis

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Looking good.
A few things,
There is no neutral at your heating elements. The only place you'll use the neutral is at the pump (Or any other 110v stuff) The elements only need both "Hot" wires, and ground.
(Check your manual, of course) But you can power the PIDs with 110v or 220v. I don't see the neutral going to your PIDs so I'm assuming you just forgot to draw it in. So you can either wire them to the two Hot's, or carry the neutral to each one for 110v.

As a matter of fact, if you get a 220v pump, you won't need the neutral at all, and can use a 3-wire plug, and cheaper 3-wire cable.

Looks like you're on the right track though!
Ah ok cool, i will remove the neutrals in the drawing which go to the elements (havent wired it yet). I have one of those new chugger pumps, i think its only 125V so i believe it will still require the neutral wire. Thanks for the advice so far, please keep it coming :mug:
 

SweetSounds

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since i already have a 2000W element i think i will use it for the HLT and i will get a 3500W or maybe 4000W for the kettle. For the kettle, someone on another thread i had going made a very good point in stating, that "you need your kettle to boil, so there is no real need for a PID to control it", if i do a 3500W element it should be more than enough to keep a 5gal batch boiling (without scortching) and it will be as simple as let it run at 100%.

Or is my electrical knowledge incorrect in thinking i can use 2 SSR's for the kettle without a PID? And can you explain to me what a PWM circuit is? i've read about it online but i dont see how i would incorporate this into my panel

Thanks!
PWM = Pulse Width Modulation - It pulses full power to something, for less than 100% of the time.
So if the PWM is at "75%" and the interval is 2 seconds, it will deliver 100% power for 1.5 seconds, and 0% power for .5 seconds.
It really is a great way to control your boils, and will be very necessary if your boil volume is anywhere close to your kettle volume.

Regardless, the turn on voltage for your SSR's is likely no more than 32 volts DC, so you'll fry them if you connect them to 110v AC. (The PIDs deliver 9 volts DC to the SSR outputs, regardless of what you power them with)
So basically, you'll need one of 3 things to drive those SSRs:
A PID,
A PWM,
Or a DC power supply to just switch on and off.
 
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hammis

hammis

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ok so here is my next question, if i do add the PID for the kettle do i have to connect it to both SSR's? and the same question goes for the HLT?
 
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hammis

hammis

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ok so here is the new diagram:



I still don't fully get how the PID controls the SSR's, or maybe i'm confused on how an SSR works.

Is the following correct: the switch will cut off power to both SSR's (either for the kettle or HLT), BUT the PID is what provides the small electrical currect which actually closes the "gate" which will let the 110V current flow through the SSR to the elements.

If thats the case then whats the purpose of having manual switches? OR is there a way to wire it so that the elements are only controlled manually by the switch and the PID is used almost solely as a temp sensor?

sorry about all the questions
 

T-Hops

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The manual switchs are a saftey feature. You can switch off the power being supplied to an element no matter what the PID wants. Adjusting a PID takes a little time. If you have a boil over you can manually switch off power to that element to stop the boil over. You can also be pretty confident that when you stick your hand in your kettle to clean it, it won't kill you if it is switched off.
 

SweetSounds

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ok so here is the new diagram:



I still don't fully get how the PID controls the SSR's, or maybe i'm confused on how an SSR works.

Is the following correct: the switch will cut off power to both SSR's (either for the kettle or HLT), BUT the PID is what provides the small electrical currect which actually closes the "gate" which will let the 110V current flow through the SSR to the elements.

If thats the case then whats the purpose of having manual switches? OR is there a way to wire it so that the elements are only controlled manually by the switch and the PID is used almost solely as a temp sensor?

sorry about all the questions
A Solid State Relay is exactly what it sounds like, and like their mechanical cousins, an SSR requires a small current to switch a large current on and off. So your PID provides 9 volts DC (Or so), to switch "On" the SSR's output, and the 20+ amps connected to it. That kind of current would smoke the tiny little relay in a PID.

The switch is required for 2 reasons. Like T-Hops said, you can be sure the element is off, regardless of what the PID wants to do.
The other reason is that an SSR can fail "Closed" - In other words, if the SSR breaks, it can break in the "On" state, providing power to your elements and no way to kill it.
 
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hammis

hammis

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ok i think i have it figured out now, i will post my new drawing in the next couple day. i've eliminated the dual ssr's, since if one fails, things could go BOOM! which is something i would like to avoid.

what i will do is have the wire come in from the dryer plug and connect to the e-stop and terminals as before. Then 2 sets of hot wires will go to 2 separate DPDT's and then onto the elements. The DPDT's will be actuated by the use of 120V selector switched which will allow the coil to energize and "close" allowing energy to pass onto the elements. for now i'll just my primitive thermometer to measure the temp in my vessels and once i have some more cash i will add the PID's
 

SweetSounds

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ok i think i have it figured out now, i will post my new drawing in the next couple day. i've eliminated the dual ssr's, since if one fails, things could go BOOM! which is something i would like to avoid.

what i will do is have the wire come in from the dryer plug and connect to the e-stop and terminals as before. Then 2 sets of hot wires will go to 2 separate DPDT's and then onto the elements. The DPDT's will be actuated by the use of 120V selector switched which will allow the coil to energize and "close" allowing energy to pass onto the elements. for now i'll just my primitive thermometer to measure the temp in my vessels and once i have some more cash i will add the PID's
Whoa whoa whoa...
First - If your dual SSR fails, it will simply allow, or disallow current to flow (Depending on if it fails open or closed) - It won't blow...
Second - You can't trigger an SSR with 120 volts - You'll let the smoke out. Most SSRs want 30 volts DC, or less. Check your specs on the SSRs.
Third - I would highly recommend you do drop the coin on a PID for at least your mash tun - Not that it's impossible, but it will be very difficult to control your mash temp by manually blasting it with full heat from your element. (Not so difficult in the BK though)

Lets see your revised diagram - Maybe I'm missing something...
 

ClaudiusB

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Second - You can't trigger an SSR with 120 volts
The 120 V SSR version work well with relay only out controllers, no DC supply required.
I use a few 120V control voltage SSR's with my Love controller.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB
 

Stickshaker

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It looks pretty good, with a few suggestions...


- Get a double-pole switch on your pain power input - Switching both the hot and the neutral isn't necessary, but it is a good idea.
Just curious, why is this an improvement? The neutral is completely harmless if your not wiring a gasoline pump...
 

SweetSounds

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Just curious, why is this an improvement? The neutral is completely harmless if your not wiring a gasoline pump...
True - But I like to...
It's just comforting to know that no matter what, when I turn off the switch there's nothing connected to the load.

Just personal preference, and DP costs about $2 more than SP...
 

Stickshaker

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True - But I like to...
It's just comforting to know that no matter what, when I turn off the switch there's nothing connected to the load.

Just personal preference, and DP costs about $2 more than SP...
Peace of mind is definitely worth two bucks...:mug:
 
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hammis

hammis

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ok so i think the decision is to do this in 2 stages (have to save a bit of cash monies for some PID's, i already spent a LOAD and the wife would kill me if i spent more right now, also someone please explain the SWMBO acronym to me).

Stage #1:



Stage #2



Quick explaination:

Stage #1: elements to be controlled manualy through the use of 2 allan bradley selector switches. On the Kettle the selector switch will control the power coil within th DPDT, this in turn will allow 240V to flow to the element. For the HLT, the element will be directly controlled by the allan bradley selector switch.

Stage #2: once i have some more free money for what is becoming my expensive hobby, lol, i will include the PID's. The kettle PID will control one hot line via a secondary SSR. The HLT PID will control the only hot line via a SSR. I'm still debating on whether or not to use a third PID on the mash tun as a temp sensor (wont be controlling anything)

Thoughts?
 

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I hear you on the costs, I'm planning my electric brewery, and it's pretty scary.

As you mentioned, it would probably be slightly cheaper to just use a thermometer vs a PID for the mash tun.

A third PID would make your control panel look more consistent, if that matters to you, and you would have a backup/ability to upgrade later on.
 

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SWMBO = She Who Must Be Obeyed.... scary but true!!!!!

Very nice diagrams, I'll be reviewing these during the next stage of my build.

CHEERS
 
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hammis

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ok so i think i finally have all the parts i need to get phase 1 completed, i'm planning on working on this tomorrow and friday morning.

I do have a question tho, i have read about TTHN wire being used inside of panels, how does this differ from the Carol 10/3 or 10/4 wire i have purchased from home depot? Can i just use extra wire i have, discard the rubber outer coating and insulation and use the inner; hot(red), hot(black), nuetral(white) and ground (green) for my internal wiring as well?

Also, when wiring a DPST do i need to connect a neutral to the coil? I understand that i need the 2 hot wire's going in and then 2 going out. There will be a 3rd hot wire which will actuate the coil to close the circuit, for this third hot wire, i would assume that a neutral would be necessary again to complete the circuit, correct?
 

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ok so i think i finally have all the parts i need to get phase 1 completed, i'm planning on working on this tomorrow and friday morning.

I do have a question tho, i have read about TTHN wire being used inside of panels, how does this differ from the Carol 10/3 or 10/4 wire i have purchased from home depot? Can i just use extra wire i have, discard the rubber outer coating and insulation and use the inner; hot(red), hot(black), nuetral(white) and ground (green) for my internal wiring as well?

Also, when wiring a DPST do i need to connect a neutral to the coil? I understand that i need the 2 hot wire's going in and then 2 going out. There will be a 3rd hot wire which will actuate the coil to close the circuit, for this third hot wire, i would assume that a neutral would be necessary again to complete the circuit, correct?
1) Yes, you can - You can use any wire you want as long as it's rated for the current.

2) Yes - You'll need a hot and a neutral to trigger the contactor.
 
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hammis

hammis

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i'm planning on using the dpdt as a "switch". Similar to a SSR, a DPDT needs some sort of signal to close the circuit. In the case of a SSR this is a 12VDC signal from the PID (or some other source). For a DPDT you have a coil which is rated to a certain voltage, when that voltage is applied to the coil, and electromagnetic reaction occurs which closes the circuit. The contactors to which the 2 hot wired are connected close and allow the current to pass through into the element.

My question has to do with the voltage i am applying to the coil. It will be supplied with a 120V hot wire, since my coil requires 120Vac to close. My question is, do i need a neutral wire on the other end of the coil going back to the terminal block?
 
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hammis

hammis

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sorry, dont mean to sound snide, just trying to logically work this all out in my head and out loud, i really dont want to die or blow anything up when i start wiring stuff tomorrow

:mug:
 

SweetSounds

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i'm planning on using the dpdt as a "switch". Similar to a SSR, a DPDT needs some sort of signal to close the circuit. In the case of a SSR this is a 12VDC signal from the PID (or some other source). For a DPDT you have a coil which is rated to a certain voltage, when that voltage is applied to the coil, and electromagnetic reaction occurs which closes the circuit. The contactors to which the 2 hot wired are connected close and allow the current to pass through into the element.

My question has to do with the voltage i am applying to the coil. It will be supplied with a 120V hot wire, since my coil requires 120Vac to close. My question is, do i need a neutral wire on the other end of the coil going back to the terminal block?
Maybe - What is the make and model number of the device you are calling a "DPDT"?

It looks from the pic like a contactor or power relay, but I need more information.
How many posts - What are they labeled?
 

ClaudiusB

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Stage #1: elements to be controlled manualy through the use of 2 allan bradley selector switches.
What contact blocks are you using for the E-Stop and 30 mm NEMA switches?
Standard A-B contact blocks are rated 10A continuous.



Cheers,
ClaudiusB
 
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hammis

hammis

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sweetsounds: I dont have the dpdt in front of me now (at work) and for the life of me i can't remember the info, i'll post it later when i get home.

ClaudiusB: As for the e-stop, i'm rethinking the way i have that set up, my electricians at work pointed out the same issue to me, so i'm not quite sure how i will change that up. any suggestions?
 
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hammis

hammis

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p.s. ClaudiusB, I just looked through all your brewery pictures and i must say, you are my hero!
 

ClaudiusB

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ClaudiusB: As for the e-stop, i'm rethinking the way i have that set up, my electricians at work pointed out the same issue to me, so i'm not quite sure how i will change that up. any suggestions?
Your electrician could have recommended a master control relay controlled by the E-Stop to supply/cut power;)
Or a simple disconnect rated for your application.



50A disconnect, overkill for my gas fired setup:D



Cheers,
ClaudiusB
 
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hammis

hammis

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i was just perusing another control panel build and i came across this same picture you just posted. I think i might go that route instead of the estop (even though i got the estop free from work). It seems like a simple enough concept....2 hot lines into disconnect, when flipped to OFF whole system has zero power when flipped to ON whole system is energized, right?
 
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