Analyze my homebrew

[Pluto035]

Sooo. I'm starting to become a little desperate. I've been trying to figure out what the extra aftertaste in my beer is. I've brewed about 6 batches so far and all of them have had the same funny taste carbonating. I though it was my water so I switched to distilled for this last batch. I also didn't use any steeping grains in an effort to eliminate the possibility that it could be tannins, but the taste is still there even through the "green beer" flavor since it's only been bottled for about 9 days. I'm pretty much down to something I must be doing wrong in my brewing method but I'm out of idea's on what to try.

So now I'm down to my real question. Any experienced homebrewers in the NW suburbs of Chicago want to sample my brew and help me figure out what's going on? I have a previous batch of my attempt at Ed's Haus Pale Ale that has been bottled for about 6 weeks to try as well.

The recipe I followed for ed's pale ale was from this post I made.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/what-brew-left-overs-124890/
Used Safale05 on this batch, in the primary for two weeks at 60 degrees, then bottled for around 6 six weeks so far.

I used 1.5qt's per lb of grain for the mash. And sparged with 1.5 gallons of water at 175 degrees.

And my most recent batch:

6lbs DME
1 oz Amarillo pellet Hops for boiling
3/4 oz French Strisselspalt pellet hops for flavor
1/2 oz Sterling pellet hops for aroma
WLP002 (no starter).

2 gallons of water in my brew pot, added 2 lbs of DME and brought to a boil. Added in my boiling hops. Boiled for 50 minutes and then added the Strisselspalt and boiled for ten more. Turned off the heat and added the Sterling. The I wisked in the rest of the DME.

Put the primary fermentor in a tub of water held at 60 degrees for two weeks just like the first.
Bottled for 9 days so far.

 

[Zen_Brew]

Pluto

It would be nice if someone gets to stop by and taste your brews, but in the meanwhile maybe we can help some. Can you describe the taste that you are experiencing? Is it maybe slick and buttery. This could be Diacetyl

The first thing that stands out to me is your fermentation temperatures. Why are you fermenting at 60? That is a bit low for both the yeasts you mention. A ferment temp more in the 65-68 temp would be a much better choice. The yeast may not be finishing up cleaning up their byproducts at the lower temperature, and may be leaving behind some diacetyl. and this would be compounded in the WLP002 because you made no starter. Fermenting in the mid 60's and letting your temp climb to about 68 or so for the last 2 or 3 days would help the yeasts to clean up the byproducts of their fermentation.

 

[Pluto035]

I'm pretty sure it's not Diacetyl. It's just bitter, which is why I was thinking water, but the distilled batch I just did kinda ruled that out. And the 60 degrees I mentioned is the temp of the water bath for the first week or so. I was under the impression that the temp would probably be around 5-10 degrees warmer than that during fermentation. I've been getting this taste even before I was using temp control.

 

[conpewter]

Heya Pluto, I live in East Dundee and work in Buffalo grove so I could meet you sometime for a beer, I'll bring along a couple of mine.

 

[Zen_Brew]

OK. Bitter is probably not diacetyl, however you should still keep your water bath at maybe 65. Your ferment temp will be several degrees higher than the outside temperature in ambient air, however water is much more efficient at transferring temperature than air and your ferment temp should not be more than a degree or two higher than a water bath temp that it is sitting in.

You may know this, but I'll mention it anyway. I see you switched to distilled water for your last batch which looks like it was extract. Distilled water is OK for extract but should not be used for all grain as the water will be void of several important nutrients necessary for good fermentation and flavor.

My water in Seattle is very soft and my first couple batches had harsh hop bitterness that I found was due to the soft water. This should not be that much of a problem with your extract batch though as the mfr of the extract should already have processed the extract with appropriate minerals in the water when they made it.

Do you know which water disctrict you get water from and if you can get a water analysis from them?

 

[Yooper]

Is the taste present in all batches, or in just the batches in which you don't use a starter?

What do you use to sanitize? You said you used distilled water in one batch, but that it didn't change the result?

"Bitter" could be from doing the late extract process, if the recipe is designed for a partial boil. What were the AAUs of the hops?

 

[Pluto035]

It's present in all batches... I haven't made a starter for any of my batches so far, but I've only used liquid yeast twice. I use San-star to sanitize and I don't fear the foam haha. I've been using tap water for all my beers up until this last batch and it didn't change the result. I honestly don't remember the AAU of the hops. I bought them all from Midwest if that helps. I really should take better notes overall.

 

[oldschool]

U have a beginers brewing book? I don't have mine with me but they would have some troubleshooting guides that may be helpful. Is this bitter flavor a "hoppy" bitter or is it some other type of bitterness? do you bottle condition?

 

[DNW]

"Bitter" could be from doing the late extract process, if the recipe is designed for a partial boil. What were the AAUs of the hops?

This is an important point. Do you understand the question/problem?

The late extract addition will provide MUCH more hop utilization because of the lower gravity of the boil. So if you are hopping according to a 60 minute extract boil recipe it could be the equivalent of putting in twice (or more) as much hops...

 

[Pluto035]

This is an important point. Do you understand the question/problem?

The late extract addition will provide MUCH more hop utilization because of the lower gravity of the boil. So if you are hopping according to a 60 minute extract boil recipe it could be the equivalent of putting in twice (or more) as much hops...

I guess I didn't realize how much of a change that was. I have been hoping to the same 60 minute schedule even though I've been doing late additions. Could this be causing my flavoring and aroma hops to be contributing more bitterness and less taste?

Edit: Does boiling with more water than the recipe calls for affect the hop schedule too? Because I've been using about 2 gallons of water even the recipe calls for 1.5 gallons. I'm not sure how much of a difference that makes.

 

[rsmith179]

Yes, late extract brews will for sure change the way hops work in your brew. Hopefully this will help:

"Late extract additions do present one challenge for the brewer. Late extract additions increase the bitterness of the beer. Predicting the International Bitterness Units (IBUs) of late extract additions to match your target style is mathematically complex. Most brewing software and spreadsheets are simply not designed to handle multiple hop and late malt extract additions in the boil. The gravity and bitterness of the boil will vary with each ingredient added.

To do the calculation by hand you would need to calculate the gravity of the boil at each stage, bitterness contribution from each hop addition taking this gravity into account and then combine these into one overall IBU number for the brew. To compensate, some brewers use a “rule of thumb” such as “reduce hops by 20% when using late extract brews”. Another method is to calculate the hops addition without the late extract and then add 5-10% more hops to compensate for lower utilization during the last 15 minutes of the boil."

 

[DNW]

Hop utilization is dependent upon the SG of the wort, so yes - a larger boil with late extract will make an even bigger difference.

I entered your original recipe into Beersmith and came up with a bitterness of 15.4 IBU (using 1.6 gallons starting boil). I then changed to 2.2 gallons and a flame-out late extract addition on the 4 pounds, and it changed to 34.6 IBU.

One other possible factor is the AA rating of your hops. I used Beersmith's standard values, but hops vary from crop to crop, so if your hops were on the high side that can add even more change.

 

[DNW]

Oh, here is the wiki page:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Hop_utilization

 

[Pluto035]

Thanks for the help so far guys. I appreciate it a lot. I really want to get this figured out and start controlling my recipes better. I'm going to try a few beers from my batch that's been aging a while and try to do a better job describing the flavor/aroma. I guess that's another skill that will develop with time.

 

[oldschool]

Can someone explain exactly why the late extract addition will increase the IBU?

 

[Zen_Brew]

Can someone explain exactly why the late extract addition will increase the IBU?

I'm not a water chemist, but here is how I like to think of it. There is a certain amount of solids that water can comfortably absorb. Be they sugars, minerals, alpha acids whatever. The more saturated the water is, the less readily it accepts more solids. By holding part of the extract additions until late in the boil, you are allowing the hops to disperse their oils and acids into water that is less populated with solids and more accomadating to accepting the bittering compounds.

 

[oldschool]

makes sense.

 

[thantos]

Pluto,
Are these your recipes and you are just trying different methods and procedures or are they established recipes and you are making changes from them?

The reason I ask is I went through the same thing early on. I followed the recipes and their procedures to the letter and made really good beer, then I started experimenting and trying different procedures and started running into funky tastes....

My two cents worth is, I establish what I call my base wort first, all grains and extracts are in the pot and boiling then I start with my hop additions. Unless a recipe specifically calls for a late addition of grains or malt I try to avoid doing it as I think most recipes are set up and meant to be followed around the specific gravity issues mentioned early.

The other thing is I all ways try to do a full 5-6 gallon boil, (I realize not everyone is set up to be able to do this) unless the recipe states other wise. I found that the full boil ended the "extract twang" and just lead to better beer! Other than that I think everything else that's been said is spot on!

Hope this helps!

 

[Pluto035]

I've been getting recipes from books and online. Since my note taking has not been the best I'm not sure if I changed anything from the first few recipes. If I did it probably would have been increasing the boil size from 1.5 to 2 gallons. I also didn't control the fermentation temps very well the first few times. The last two batches I've done were by the book as far as boil size... but I used late additions. I also haven't been straining my wort before I pour it into the primary. Would the extra trub increase the bitterness as well?

 

[Grummle]

I brewed one batch of American Pale Ale from Brewers Best kit and the instructions warned me explicitly that if I did a boil with more then the recomended 2.5 gallons the hops were going to go screwy. If I did more water it said there would be more hop taste and if I did less it would minimize the hops.

Again that was my first batch ever , but thats what the instructions told me. Glad they did too cause I was thinking about boiling the full 5 gallons

 

[conpewter]

I've been getting recipes from books and online. Since my note taking has not been the best I'm not sure if I changed anything from the first few recipes. If I did it probably would have been increasing the boil size from 1.5 to 2 gallons. I also didn't control the fermentation temps very well the first few times. The last two batches I've done were by the book as far as boil size... but I used late additions. I also haven't been straining my wort before I pour it into the primary. Would the extra trub increase the bitterness as well?

Increasing the boil size will improve your beers, but you'll need to adjust hop additions as well. The same is true of late addition as well. If you get a program such as beersmith it can help you determine how to adjust your hops. Leaving the hops and trub in as you pour to primary isn't a big deal and won't increase your bitterness as long as you are cooling the wort before you seal it in the fermenter.