Quantcast

An 'authentic' Gueuze Recipe

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

ericd

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
635
Reaction score
12
Okay, there still seems to be a lot of confusion on these boards on what a lambic is/isn't and how to make one at home. This is a recipe from Jean Xavier Guinard. He's belgian, for one, so he knows a thing or two about beer. Second, he got his PhD from studying beer. Third, he literally wrote the book on brewing them at home.



This is a recipe from that book.

Gueuze-lambic
by Jean Xavier Guinard

6.8 lbs klages pale malt
3.3 lbs wheat
0.5 lb crystal malt 40L

0.33 oz each fuggles, northern brewer, and bullion hops (3 years old)

Sacch. culture (Sierra Nevada ale yeast)
Brett. culture
Pedio. culture

Mixed sacch-brett-pedio culture for bottle conditioning

3/4 cup dextrose for priming

OG 1.053
FG 1.013
Boil: 2 hours
Primary (sacch.): 1 week at 63 F
Secondary (pedio and brett): 2 weeks at 69F, 4 weeks at 62F
Fermenter: oak cask

Mix 1.4 gallons of water with the wheat and 10% of the klages pale malt. In a cooker, bring to a boil after a ten minute rest at 158F. Boil for 30-45 minutes. Start the main mash by mixing 1.3 gallons of 130F water with the rest of the pale malt and crystal malts. Hold for 15 minutes at 140F. Drop the boiled adjunct into the main mash and hold at 158F for 30min and mash off at 170F. Slowly run off and sparge. Boil for 2 hours, adding hops early into the boil. Fill the cask with the cooled wort and inoculate with the sacch culture. After one week, inoculate with the pedio. culture and after 3 weeks with the brett culture. Make up the ullage in the cask every other weeks with fresh wort. Rack and bottle condition with the fresh mixed culture and dextrose for priming.
Notes:

This is for a 5 gallon cask.

Ullage is the beer that gets lost as foam from the fermentation. Yes, traditionally the bunghole of the cask is left wide open during the fermentation.

His recipes for fruit lambic are basically the same. He adds the fruit after primary fermentation, along with the bugs. He uses 10lbs of cherries (with pits!) for his kriek. For his frambroise, he adds 1 oz of vanilla extract, 8.5 lbs of raspberries and changes the hops to Saaz, Fuggles and Alsace.

At the time this book was written 'Sierra Nevada' yeast and lab cultures of pedio and brett were all that were available. I don't see why you couldn't use belgian golden ale and wyeast lambic blend, for example.
 

chemman14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2009
Messages
1,647
Reaction score
38
Location
Newbury Park
Okay, there still seems to be a lot of confusion on these boards on what a lambic is/isn't and how to make one at home. This is a recipe from Jean Xavier Guinard. He's belgian, for one, so he knows a thing or two about beer. Second, he got his PhD from studying beer. Third, he literally wrote the book on brewing them at home.


This is a recipe from that book.



Notes:

This is for a 5 gallon cask.

Ullage is the beer that gets lost as foam from the fermentation. Yes, traditionally the bunghole of the cask is left wide open during the fermentation.

His recipes for fruit lambic are basically the same. He adds the fruit after primary fermentation, along with the bugs. He uses 10lbs of cherries (with pits!) for his kriek. For his frambroise, he adds 1 oz of vanilla extract, 8.5 lbs of raspberries and changes the hops to Saaz, Fuggles and Alsace.

At the time this book was written 'Sierra Nevada' yeast and lab cultures of pedio and brett were all that were available. I don't see why you couldn't use belgian golden ale and wyeast lambic blend, for example.
what is "sierra nevada" yeast?
 

Brewsmith

Home brewing moogerfooger
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
6,252
Reaction score
76
Location
Torrance, CA
It's the "Chico" strain of American Ale Yeast

White Labs WLP-001
Wyeast 1056
Safale US-05
 

nealf

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2008
Messages
1,340
Reaction score
9
Location
Hiram
My question is why is this not a "Straight Unblended Lambic"?

BJCP said:
Comments: Straight lambics are single-batch, unblended beers. Since they are unblended, the straight lambic is often a true product of the “house character” of a brewery and will be more variable than a gueuze. They are generally served young (6 months) and on tap as cheap, easy-drinking beers without any filling carbonation. Younger versions tend to be one-dimensionally sour since a complex Brett character often takes upwards of a year to develop. An enteric character is often indicative of a lambic that is too young. A noticeable vinegary or cidery character is considered a fault by Belgian brewers. Since the wild yeast and bacteria will ferment ALL sugars, they are bottled only when they have completely fermented. Lambic is served uncarbonated, while gueuze is served effervescent. IBUs are approximate since aged hops are used; Belgians use hops for anti-bacterial properties more than bittering in lambics.
BJCP said:
Comments: Gueuze is traditionally produced by mixing one, two, and three-year old lambic. “Young” lambic contains fermentable sugars while old lambic has the characteristic “wild” taste of the Senne River valley. A good gueuze is not the most pungent, but possesses a full and tantalizing bouquet, a sharp aroma, and a soft, velvety flavor. Lambic is served uncarbonated, while gueuze is served effervescent. IBUs are approximate since aged hops are used; Belgians use hops for anti-bacterial properties more than bittering in lambics. Products marked “oude” or “ville” are considered most traditional.
I guess that is all semantics though; I like the recipe, but would have expected to see a lot more secondary aging
 
OP
E

ericd

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
635
Reaction score
12
Yeah I guess technically it would be a "Straight Unblended Lambic" according to BJCP.

You could make several batches, keep them for years and then blend them though.
 

ryane

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
845
Reaction score
9
Location
Washington
Even if this guy got his PhD is beer, I think fermenting a lambic with a clean yeast and then adding bugs after most of the sugars/nutrients are gone doesnt produce as complex and sour of a beer as adding the bugs from the beginning

think about it, does cantillon, girardin hansens ets ferment with a clean ale yeast and then add bugs? No they have bugs from the get go, now granted they blend to produce the desired flavor profile, but so should a homebrewer, many of the best lambics/sours Ive had/brewed were blended
 

Saccharomyces

Be good to your yeast...
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Messages
5,438
Reaction score
143
Location
Pflugerville, Texas
Many of the sour beers produced in America are done this way (Consecration, Cuvee de Tomme, etc. are inoculated with bugs post-primary fermentation) and achieve an adequate level of sourness. Whether you add a mixed culture or single cultures, each bug will be dominant at a particular phase of fermentation. Dr. Guinard's method may be better than a mixed culture because the species which normally dominates at each step is allowed to work alone.

Since I have started isolating my own cultures to use, I will probably use this method when I get around to doing lambic.
 

Sixbillionethans

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
159
Reaction score
10
Location
Wauwatosa, WI
People often like to use Chico ale yeast as a primary fermentation strain when making sour/wild beers due to its neutral flavor. It doesn't get in the way of the flavor contributions of the pedio, brett, etc. Also, from a commercial brewing standpoint, the brewery can choose the specific bacteria or wild yeasts to add to secondary ferment.

However, I don't particularly like to use Chico yeast because it's so attenuative. I don't want to pitch bugs into a fermented wort that's already down to 1.010. I'd rather have a wort/yeast with a terminal gravity of 1.016-1.018.

If you REALLY want to use a different yeast for primary fermentation in conjunction with a sour yeast/bacteria blend (even though I claim it's useless), I'd lean towards:

WY1272 - similar to WY1056 but does typically have less attenuation.
WY3463, WY3522, WY3942, WY3944 - cool fermentation of any of these strains should give a relatively neutral character along with lower attenuation than WY1056.
*Wyeast claims that WY3278 contains a "Belgian-style wheat beer yeast"; sounds like WY3942 or WY3944 to me. Saccharomyces might have a guess, since he's isolating yeast strains.
 

Saccharomyces

Be good to your yeast...
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Messages
5,438
Reaction score
143
Location
Pflugerville, Texas
*Wyeast claims that WY3278 contains a "Belgian-style wheat beer yeast"; sounds like WY3942 or WY3944 to me. Saccharomyces might have a guess, since he's isolating yeast strains.
I wouldn't give myself that much credit :D but a wild*** guess would be 3942 which supposedly originates from De Dolle in West Flanders. If you have had a Wit brewed with this yeast you will note it is quite a bit more neutral than the 3944 which is supposedly the Hoegaarden strain acquired from the Celis brewery when it was in operation right here in Austin.
 

Oldsock

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
3,303
Reaction score
304
Location
DC
Many of the sour beers produced in America are done this way (Consecration, Cuvee de Tomme, etc. are inoculated with bugs post-primary fermentation) and achieve an adequate level of sourness.
My personal take is that this has to do with barrel aging. I've never been able to get carboy fermented beers to sour adequately without pitching bugs in primary. However the two barrel aged sours a group of us did went through clean primary fermentations before being inoculated with bugs in secondary and ended up as sour as any of my bug in primary carboy beers. Not sure if the wood or the oxygen is to credit.

I think the bug strains at use at breweries are also to credit, the bugs from bottle dregs seem much more potent (in terms of amount of sourness produced, speed, temperature, alcohol tolerance range etc...) than the equivalent commercial strains from White Labs and Wyeast.
 

ryane

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
845
Reaction score
9
Location
Washington
pure conjecture here, but maybe part of the reason barrel beers turn out more sour/funky is the fact that brett can metabolize wood sugars, so they have an additional source of food
 

Oldsock

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
3,303
Reaction score
304
Location
DC
Any body messed around with the red oak peg in the carboy for barrel simulated results?
I didn't really get better results than just using oak cubes, and the expanding wood cracked the neck of my carboy. A toasted oak dowel through a stopper would be a much easier alternative, but I'm still not sure the results justify the effort.
 

wscott823

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
482
Reaction score
10
Location
Baltimore
I'll be fabricating the oak peg for a carboy of mine in the next month or two for my Flanders Red later this spring. I heard of wrapping the peg in a fair ammount of teflon tape, I suppose to buffer any expansion of the wood thus cracking the carboy. We'll see how it all turns out when I cross that bridge.
 

Oldsock

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
3,303
Reaction score
304
Location
DC
I'll be fabricating the oak peg for a carboy of mine in the next month or two for my Flanders Red later this spring. I heard of wrapping the peg in a fair ammount of teflon tape, I suppose to buffer any expansion of the wood thus cracking the carboy. We'll see how it all turns out when I cross that bridge.
I did the Teflon tape thing too, also if there is even the smallest amount of fermentation going on when you add the peg watch out for the pressure that builds up forcing beer out through the wood.
 

Ryan_PA

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
1,878
Reaction score
22
Location
Wayne
Wes, I have 4 sours going with the oak dowel process. The oldest went into the secondary in July I think. It is exhibiting a nice acidic nose as of last month, but I think it will get a more sour flavor as it ages through the summer when things warm up. I have no control to compare to, but I honestly think the oak is allowing a good amount of o2 into the beer below the pellicle. All but 1 of the beers were primereied with a sour strain in my case. I do have one sour going now without the oak dowel, but it has only been in the bucket with the bugs for like a month, so there is no sense in comparing that one, however it is freaking fantastic at its young age.

 

wscott823

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
482
Reaction score
10
Location
Baltimore
Wes, I have 4 sours going with the oak dowel process. The oldest went into the secondary in July I think. It is exhibiting a nice acidic nose as of last month, but I think it will get a more sour flavor as it ages through the summer when things warm up. I have no control to compare to, but I honestly think the oak is allowing a good amount of o2 into the beer below the pellicle. All but 1 of the beers were primereied with a sour strain in my case. I do have one sour going now without the oak dowel, but it has only been in the bucket with the bugs for like a month, so there is no sense in comparing that one, however it is freaking fantastic at its young age.

Next brewday I'm definitely picking your brain on your setup(s) :mug:
 
Top