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Big Monk

Trappist Please! 🍷
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There was a prickly exchange earlier today between @Vale71 and myself.

I wanted to take a moment to address some points he made in order to maybe open a dialogue between myself and Him, but also others. I have a nagging suspicion that we may still be being subjected to harsh and undue criticism based on some folks opinions and experiences from past interactions.

I’m not posting this as a gotcha or to try and shame or belittle @Vale71. Quite the opposite in fact. My hope is that if I amicably address the points below, that maybe a fruitful dialogue may result.

Here were the points he laid out earlier:

Here is the list of lies that you're pandering in this and other threads:

1. All German breweries use LODO techniques.
2. Only through LODO can you make excellent German style beers.
3. If you don't use LODO your beer will invariably be of inferior quality because only LODO ensures a flawless product
4. Our techniques are effective in preventing hot-side oxidation as demonstrated by large commercial breweries using entirely different and for us unattainable techniques to mitigate hot-side oxygen ingress.
5. As a result of implementing LODO our beers are of much better quality. Because we say so and we and only we can be the judge of that. Because if you don't practice LODO yourself then you don't know what you're talking about and only need to shut up.

1.) I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone in an admin position (myself and Die Beerery included) at our site and forum, or any of the contributing members from our forum who also post here regularly, ever say this. We are all usually pretty good about prefacing with the fact that all MACRO German breweries use low oxygen techniques, albeit not the exact ones we use because they have more sophisticated mechanical and physical means of doing so.

2.) Just to clarify, I think many have stepped away from the good/bad dichotomy. We certainly feel if you are trying to achieve the much lauded flavor of the German macro and large scale lager brewers, i.e. Weihenstephan, Ayinger, Auginstiner, Andechs, Paulaner, Hofbräu, etc., that these methods will help you nail the flavor. And frankly, what most homebrewers are striving for WRT German lager, is just that subset of beers. People are often looking for the missing piece to get them there and low oxygen techniques, we feel, are the ones to do it. With that said, if you feel you are making excellent lagers, or any other beer for that matter, then that’s fine as well. Only the individual brewer can judge whether they are where they want to be or not.

3.) I don’t think this is true at all and I’m not sure where this is coming from. Taste is subjective and if people like what they brew then there’s nothing wrong with their beer.

4.) I don’t think this is a fair assessment. We use specially tailored “hacks” to force a sort of equilibrium between our breweries and large macro breweries. Same effect but different techniques. I do not think there is anything disingenuous about that. Macro breweries don’t use sulfites, mash caps and preboil/YOS and we don’t have wet mills, stripping columns and large vessels with square/cube law on our side. Different logistics, vessels, equipment, etc. but same outcome.

5.) I get what you are trying to convey here but I don’t agree. I think we feel the overall quality and flavor stability is superior evidenced by longer lasting fresh grain flavors, hop aroma and flavor, less boil stress and oxidative reaction color pickup, etc. I’m not sure your assessment captures, even remotely, anything close to the true spirit of what we are trying to help people with.

Here is the reality that you try to hide with your blatant lies:

1. Most breweries, German or otherwise located, don't use LODO techniques. Granted, modern brewhouses have done away with open lauter grants and wort and mash is transferred through inlets and outlets located at the bottom of vessels in order to avoid unnecessary splashing but that's about the extent of it.
2. Very large commercial breweries use expensive hot-side oxygen ingress mitigation techniques in order to attain a very stable product since they have very long distribution chains, meaning it could take several months before their product is finally consumed. They don't do it because otherwise their beer would be ruined from the get go as this is not the case with hot-side oxidation but only with cold-side oxidation.
3. Most homebrewed beers are severely affected by cold-side oxidation and poor fermentation practices, which are responsible for 99% of defects and poor product quality in general. These are the issues that homebrewers need to be addressing instead of wasting their time with your LODO nonsense.
4. Many a homebrewer has wasted his/her time with your nonsense and walked away in disgust at the poor quality of the product. Of course you will claim that this is because they have done something wrong and not because many of your techniques (such as treating brewing liquor with chemicals whose effects you don't really fully understand) are simply flawed.

1.) I’ll grant you that “Mom and Pop” regional breweries are all over the world are probably not working with state of the art, low oxygen brewhouses but I think you’d be surprised by how much what you described in this point, coupled with large vessels with the advantage of the square/cube law, helps with oxygen exclusion and overall improvements in flavor stability.

2.) It strikes me that you are simultaneously arguing for and against the preservation of fresh grain flavors, i.e. the distinct flavor of fresh German macro lager. If cold side oxidation prevention is the more important factor (and I think everyone can agree on its importance) in long term flavor preservation and shelf stability, then why would they bother with the hot side? I think the answer is more than stability.

3.) I think we can agree here, although not WRT to your nonsense comment. If you don’t have a handle of cold side practices and fermentation, then you should definitely not be worried about oxygen exclusion on the hot side.

4.) This is a straw man on multiple fronts. First, it is true many have had issues implementing some of the techniques. What you haven’t described is that along with the attempts came changes in process, equipment, etc. that threw some people multiple curveballs that they were unable to handle all at once. We have, for some time now, encouraged people not to become discouraged with results as they gear up and adapt to new processes. Frankly, this isn’t unlike going from extract to all grain. There are new concerns, new things to master, etc. Some, who decided to deviate from generally accepted practice, had mixed results. Some, who followed the process as described, also had mixed results. In the former case, many took that as an indictment of what we were proposing and suggesting and walked away. The latter case, many of whom still post here, at the AHA Forum, and our personal forum, stuck with it and treated those mixed results as growing pains. They stuck with it and have flourished. As far as your chemicals comment, we understand, very fully indeed, the mechanism by which they scavenge oxygen and reduce pH in the mash.

I hope none of this comes off as standoffish, defensive, etc. My goal is pleasant discourse, not a street fight.
 
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tl;dr

Being frank, both of you can be edgy. I'm not surprised that sparks ensued ;)

Cheers!

That’s a shock. I’ve never considered myself all that edgy, especially here.

You learn something new every day...
 
tl;dr

Being frank, both of you can be edgy. I'm not surprised that sparks ensued ;)

Cheers!
If you ever communicated directly with @RPIScotty, you'd find him the opposite of edgy. Dude could put you to sleep in two minutes with his slow and steady, dispassionate tone, saying exactly the same words that raise such hackles online. The same is true of @Die_Beerery, and probably everyone else among us, maybe even @Vale71 for all I know. Text on forums plays very differently from real people's personalities. If the entire history of the "controversy" at hand had played out in the era of Zoom instead of text chat, I doubt we'd have much sense of tension. I will now step back from this conversation, and hope it will be conducted in a dispassionate manner.
 
I have found every single poster on the low oxygen forum to be scientific minded, supportive and non-condescending and dont get the claim that scotty is edgy. I can't say the same for some users of this forum.

I think it is a good effort to address the points but it feels like arguing with flat earthers and not worth the time and effort. I'm guessing vale feels the same way from his end and won't change his mind, as is his right. I find the block user option the easiest solution.
 
@RPIScotty i wouldn't get too butt hurt....vale71 just got 'sharp' with me for asking what the hell the point of beer gas was if nitrogen doesn't dissolve in water....but i learned something and left it at that.....


(and hell, everybody hates my nonchalance attitude...LOL, this is serious man! ;))

pre-edit: i remember this is Lodo discussion forum? why is this a soap opera thread?
 
I'll put aside my skepticism regarding the value of emulating industrial LODO brewing techniques at the homebrew level when I see more side by side comparisons and actual taste tests.
After work, I'll relax and have a homebrew and ponder this and other important considerations and hope everyone can avoid "edgy and prickley" interactions.

:tank:
 
I do not like how personal this has gotten, at all. First, re-posting another member's previous posts from another thread and them subjecting him to criticism is not cool, especially when he didn't even participate in this thread. Second, I especially don't like it when another moderator has already taken the time to edit out personal references between you in another thread.

You say you'd like to be amicable, but the whole process of resurrecting a previous thread and quoting the other person without them even posting here is the opposite of amicable. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, I don't know. But its affect is to be too personal and attacking.

I have an idea - don't mention each other. Just talk about the issue. Another idea - you don't have to win a debate. State your point, and move on. No one wins on the internet.

I'm closing this thread and leaving it up rather than deleting it as an example of the kind of thing we do not want to see here.

Do not make things personal. Do not try to win an endless debate or argument.
 
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