American Sour Beer – Book!

[Pilgarlic]

Pilgarlic - awesome process. going to have to give this one a go some day.

one question:


why bother with the crushed malt? it contains lacto along with a bunch of other bugs, likely entero. you've got a pure culture of brevis in your starter, why mess with it?

I was unclear. The crushed malt was the SOLE source of microbes for the starter. I added the malt to the 1.030 wort to make the starter (just as MT described in the book).

For the record, I did nothing here that didn't come directly from the book, except, perhaps, limiting the time for the lacto to sour the kettle wort to less than 24 hours. It just didn't need any more time than that.

 

[BGBC]

I was unclear. The crushed malt was the SOLE source of microbes for the starter. I added the malt to the 1.030 wort to make the starter (just as MT described in the book).

For the record, I did nothing here that didn't come directly from the book, except, perhaps, limiting the time for the lacto to sour the kettle wort to less than 24 hours. It just didn't need any more time than that.

Er, so how do you know you're getting brevis? I think that's the confusion. You're getting whatever is on the malt. Lacto + ??

 

[Pilgarlic]

Er, so how do you know you're getting brevis? I think that's the confusion. You're getting whatever is on the malt. Lacto + ??

I may not be. My understanding has been that the grain typically hosts brevis. Frankly, it doesn't matter much to me. I'm getting lactobacillus, which is dominating the culture, and creating lactic acidity. Predictably, repeatably. Should I care otherwise?

 

[Oldsock]

Since we are talking about racking and yeast cakes, I thought I would ask a question that came up today. You mentioned in the book that Brett can create unique flavors off of sacch autolysis when given time. Today I racked my "lambic", that had been in primary for 6 months, onto sour cherries. I stuck the auto siphon in the yeast cake and sucked up a good chuck of yeast on purpose for the reason above. Will this have the same effect of brett creating phenols from the sacch autolysis?

Autolysis releases sugars and fatty acids, not phenols. You’ll get capr- variants, while will be turned into fruity esters by the Brett… eventually. Sucking some yeast up will lend a little of this character, but not nearly as much as sitting on the entire yeast cake. However, at 6 months some of that Sacch may still be alive, and with the addition of simple sugars from the cherries be able to recharge their reserves.

 

[finsfan]

Autolysis releases sugars and fatty acids, not phenols. You’ll get capr- variants, while will be turned into fruity esters by the Brett… eventually. Sucking some yeast up will lend a little of this character, but not nearly as much as sitting on the entire yeast cake. However, at 6 months some of that Sacch may still be alive, and with the addition of simple sugars from the cherries be able to recharge their reserves.

Thank you for clarifying. This is all still very new to me and I was trying to work from memory. What is a good time frame to assume all sacch has died and autolysis is occurring?

 

[Oldsock]

Thank you for clarifying. This is all still very new to me and I was trying to work from memory. What is a good time frame to assume all sacch has died and autolysis is occurring?

Autolysis is certainly starting by 6 months. Yeast cells die at a rate of approximately 25% a month even under ideal conditions (commercial yeast culture in the fridge), so it'd likely be even quicker for a sour beer. However, I'd guess they'd be some Sacch still alive until maybe a year or so?

 

[Wes440]

Souring the *mash is something I've been curious about trying myself - a bit faster turnaround would be nice, especially for my first sour.

I've got a plan so far, which will also be an interesting experiment as well.

Tomorrow I'm brewing a batch of Belgian Strong Golden Ale, based off of Vinnie Cilurzo's Strong Golden Ale recipe from Brew Like a Monk. I'll be using WLP500 for that brew just to make a Belgian Golden.

I'm going to brew the same exact recipe again in 2-3 weeks and plan to ferment it with a culture I've been stepping up from a bottle of Crooked Stave's Autumn St. Bretta. I'm not certain if there's any Lacto or Pedio in the culture, as I've heard both from CS's employees: "all brett" and "it's got all the bugs from the barrels as well".... (talk about confusing - which is it?!)

Would it be best to also pitch a brett strain from White Labs to accommodate the starter I've cultured? Is that necessary in anyone's opinion?

Not sure if I'll sour the mash at all - I may just pitch the starter and see what happens. Also a little oak addition sounds interesting - maybe just 1 ounce.

If I did want to sour the mash overnight to speed up the process of souring, would I want to sour the whole thing? I love the sourest beers, so I'm not so worried about that, just don't want it to get too gamey with any other bugs!

 

[lpdjshaw]

For anyone "chomping at the bit" to produce a sour beer I offer this: In the book, Michael alludes to his opinion that the quickest way to a reasonably complex sour beer is to sour the wort then 100% brett ferment. Boom. Since having read that I have brewed three ten gallon batches this way and served each of them within 30 days of brew day. Each of these beers has been complex, sour, fruity and delightful, and two of the three have been VERY well received at two local fests.

The brett starter for the primary ferment starts ten days to two weeks before pitching. Each time I've stepped up to something like 30-50 ml of well-caked slurry. Three days out I made a lacto starter from 1.5 L of 1.030 wort to which I added a couple of handfuls of crushed malt. Brewed up a simple 1.050 wort, chilled it and pitched the lacto starter into 110-115 degree wort in the boil kettle. Put the lid on and let it go overnight and BY THE NEXT MORNING was at a clean, lacto-tart pH of 3.8. Boiled with a tiny (less than 5 IBU) bittering addition. Oxygenated and pitched the brett and let it run from 64 up to 74. Dry hopped at 2 oz per 5 gallons. Kegged when clear (or nearly) and served.

Don't ask for strains, malt bill or hop schedule, this is a process not a recipe. But the beer will be nicely tart and very fruity (the souring provides a substrate from which the brett can produce its fruity esters).

Start today and you can have a complex sour beer with brett fruitiness within six weeks. Don't expect it to last long.

Cool, thanks for the great idea. Will be giving this method a try

 

[bestbuds]

Autolysis releases sugars and fatty acids, not phenols. You’ll get capr- variants, while will be turned into fruity esters by the Brett… eventually. Sucking some yeast up will lend a little of this character, but not nearly as much as sitting on the entire yeast cake. However, at 6 months some of that Sacch may still be alive, and with the addition of simple sugars from the cherries be able to recharge their reserves.

Autolysis also results in the release of nitrogenous compounds (mannoproteins and amino acids) which could be used by Brett as nutrients.

Autolysis is certainly starting by 6 months. Yeast cells die at a rate of approximately 25% a month even under ideal conditions (commercial yeast culture in the fridge), so it'd likely be even quicker for a sour beer. However, I'd guess they'd be some Sacch still alive until maybe a year or so?

For what it's worth I've pulled viable Saccharomyces out of bottled beer more than one year old, but never more than two. That said, survival/autolytic capacity seems to be strain-dependent.

I'm wondering if it would be possible to turn conventional brewing wisdom on it's head by using an autolytic yeast in primary, combined with the addition of Brett to produce those esters faster and in abundance...

 

[Matteo57]

For anyone "chomping at the bit" to produce a sour beer I offer this: In the book, Michael alludes to his opinion that the quickest way to a reasonably complex sour beer is to sour the wort then 100% brett ferment. Boom. Since having read that I have brewed three ten gallon batches this way and served each of them within 30 days of brew day. Each of these beers has been complex, sour, fruity and delightful, and two of the three have been VERY well received at two local fests.

The brett starter for the primary ferment starts ten days to two weeks before pitching. Each time I've stepped up to something like 30-50 ml of well-caked slurry. Three days out I made a lacto starter from 1.5 L of 1.030 wort to which I added a couple of handfuls of crushed malt. Brewed up a simple 1.050 wort, chilled it and pitched the lacto starter into 110-115 degree wort in the boil kettle. Put the lid on and let it go overnight and BY THE NEXT MORNING was at a clean, lacto-tart pH of 3.8. Boiled with a tiny (less than 5 IBU) bittering addition. Oxygenated and pitched the brett and let it run from 64 up to 74. Dry hopped at 2 oz per 5 gallons. Kegged when clear (or nearly) and served.

Don't ask for strains, malt bill or hop schedule, this is a process not a recipe. But the beer will be nicely tart and very fruity (the souring provides a substrate from which the brett can produce its fruity esters).

Start today and you can have a complex sour beer with brett fruitiness within six weeks. Don't expect it to last long.

If you were to do this, would you suggest Brett Brux or Brett C for ferment? Any good suggestions for hops? I was thinking Simcoe would be good possibly? Any thoughts on Hull Melon for this?

 

[Oldsock]

Souring the *mash is something I've been curious about trying myself - a bit faster turnaround would be nice, especially for my first sour.

I've got a plan so far, which will also be an interesting experiment as well.

Tomorrow I'm brewing a batch of Belgian Strong Golden Ale, based off of Vinnie Cilurzo's Strong Golden Ale recipe from Brew Like a Monk. I'll be using WLP500 for that brew just to make a Belgian Golden.

I'm going to brew the same exact recipe again in 2-3 weeks and plan to ferment it with a culture I've been stepping up from a bottle of Crooked Stave's Autumn St. Bretta. I'm not certain if there's any Lacto or Pedio in the culture, as I've heard both from CS's employees: "all brett" and "it's got all the bugs from the barrels as well".... (talk about confusing - which is it?!)

Would it be best to also pitch a brett strain from White Labs to accommodate the starter I've cultured? Is that necessary in anyone's opinion?

Not sure if I'll sour the mash at all - I may just pitch the starter and see what happens. Also a little oak addition sounds interesting - maybe just 1 ounce.

If I did want to sour the mash overnight to speed up the process of souring, would I want to sour the whole thing? I love the sourest beers, so I'm not so worried about that, just don't want it to get too gamey with any other bugs!

I think you'd be much better served to sour the wort with a culture (from a lab or otherwise) rather than the mash. Much easier to control, and less risk of gamey-footy off-flavors.

I'm a big advocate for always pitching a healthy culture of brewer's yeast along with bottle dregs. Nice to have something you know will start fermenting quickly, and protect the wort. I've done 100% bottle dreg starters, it works, but it can take a long time (a lambic with a 3 Fonteinen starter took two years to come around).

 

[Oldsock]

If you were to do this, would you suggest Brett Brux or Brett C for ferment? Any good suggestions for hops? I was thinking Simcoe would be good possibly? Any thoughts on Hull Melon for this?

Trinity does a similar process for Red Swingline, their Brett blend is Brux, Trois, and an isolate from New Belgium (if I'm correctly interpreting the cryptic "bouckaertii").

I think anything fruity works well with Brett. Simcoe has a range, some is very tropical, some more dank piney. The former would be terrific. Citra, Amarillo, Galaxy, Nelson Sauvin, Motueka, and I'm sure Hull Melon!

 

[Pilgarlic]

If you were to do this, would you suggest Brett Brux or Brett C for ferment? Any good suggestions for hops? I was thinking Simcoe would be good possibly? Any thoughts on Hull Melon for this?

Brett Lambicus has been the popular favorite among my trials. I've also used trois with nice results. Okay, you asked. In my first trial I dry hopped with Mosaic and El Dorado, one ounce each per five gallons. Delicious. I'd highly recommend the combination of Brett Lambicus for the primary fermentation and Mosaic and El Dorado dry hops.

 

[Oldsock]

Brett Lambicus has been the popular favorite among my trials. I've also used trois with nice results. Okay, you asked. In my first trial I dry hopped with Mosaic and El Dorado, one ounce each per five gallons. Delicious. I'd highly recommend the combination of Brett Lambicus for the primary fermentation and Mosaic and El Dorado dry hops.

I assume Wyeast Brett lambicus? The fruitiness seems like it would play better with those hops than the big funkiness of White Lab's strain (although maybe it is mellower in primary).

 

[Pilgarlic]

I assume Wyeast Brett lambicus? The fruitiness seems like it would play better with those hops than the big funkiness of White Lab's strain (although maybe it is mellower in primary).

White Labs. Stepped up to 75ml then to about 300ml. All fruit, playing very well with the fruity hops.

I'll try Wyeast next time and compare.

 

[Wes440]

I think you'd be much better served to sour the wort with a culture (from a lab or otherwise) rather than the mash. Much easier to control, and less risk of gamey-footy off-flavors.

I'm a big advocate for always pitching a healthy culture of brewer's yeast along with bottle dregs. Nice to have something you know will start fermenting quickly, and protect the wort. I've done 100% bottle dreg starters, it works, but it can take a long time (a lambic with a 3 Fonteinen starter took two years to come around).

I took your advice and pitched some of the wlp500 trappist ale yeast along with about 1/4 bottle of Sactification with dregs into the 1.076 wort. Fermenting along now nicely at around 68 F - it's in the single digits in Denver right now so temperature regulation is quite easy.

This is only 1 gallon, but I suppose it qualifies as my first sour! I'm excited to see what it tastes like in about 4 weeks! Planning on just checking it every 6-8 weeks after then.

Not sure what I'm going to do with the St. Bretta dregs I've been stepping up yet...

Thanks for your help!

 

[Hjandersen]

I'm somewhat ambivalent about this book, based on the US-centric title.

On one hand I'm intrigued and want to read it..
On the other hand - writing a book exclusively about american sours is ethnocentric to the point of being ridiculous..

- I really liked the composition of Mitch Steele's book on IPAs..

Lack of the appropriate historical context would be a bummer..

 

[Oldsock]

I'm somewhat ambivalent about this book, based on the US-centric title.

On one hand I'm intrigued and want to read it..
On the other hand - writing a book exclusively about american sours is ethnocentric to the point of being ridiculous..

- I really liked the composition of Mitch Steele's book on IPAs..

Lack of the appropriate historical context would be a bummer..

My book certainly dabbles in the Belgian, German, and English sour/funky beer traditions, but those weren’t the primary focus because Jeff Sparrow, Stan Hieronymus, and Ron Pattinson respectively beat me to the punch! It starts out with an overview of those country's traditions, and includes suggestions for beers to sample that illustrate them. As a way to give context to the beers and methods developed by US breweries over the last 20 years.

Writing a book that focuses on one country or culture really doesn’t fit the definition of ethnocentric. I mean a book about French wines or feudal Japan isn’t going to mention America very much. Ethnocentric refers to making judgments about another culture based on the values of your own (beer e.g., German beers aren’t well made because they aren’t heavily hopped). If you read American Sour Beers, nowhere in it do I suggest that American sour beers are better than those from any country.

 

[mbbransc]

^ Why not read Wild Ales or BLAM. Don't they cover more historical context?

 

[Hjandersen]

My book certainly dabbles in the Belgian, German, and English sour/funky beer traditions, but those weren’t the primary focus because Jeff Sparrow, Stan Hieronymus, and Ron Pattinson respectively beat me to the punch! It starts out with an overview of those country's traditions, and includes suggestions for beers to sample that illustrate them. As a way to give context to the beers and methods developed by US breweries over the last 20 years.

This sounds promising! It'll probably end up on my christmas wish list..

I mean a book about French wines or feudal Japan isn’t going to mention America very much.

Of course not - both of these are generally bigger areas.. A book on Japanese feudalism has noting to do with the US. On the other hand such a book would draw parallels and look at differences to the development in medieval Europe - moreover would it look at the tremendous cultural influence from China etc. Same goes for a french wine book..

The point being - It's a style of EU origin.. Credit where its due..

 

[finsfan]

The point being - It's a style of EU origin.. Credit where its due..

The book gives this credit throughout its entirety, even saying that some American breweries are trying to learn from the better EU breweries. You have literally judged a book by its cover.

 

[helibrewer]

This sounds promising! It'll probably end up on my christmas wish list..



Of course not - both of these are generally bigger areas.. A book on Japanese feudalism has noting to do with the US. On the other hand such a book would draw parallels and look at differences to the development in medieval Europe - moreover would it look at the tremendous cultural influence from China etc. Same goes for a french wine book..

The point being - It's a style of EU origin.. Credit where its due..

I am just about finished with the book, it is very good and focuses on the processes used by American brewers to create sour beers. There are numerous references to the historical origins and techniques used by the European brewers that originated the style. Excellent read.

 

[Pilgarlic]

The point being - It's a style of EU origin.. Credit where its due..

Chuckling here... with all due respect, must credit be given in the title?

Read the book or don't... but you might consider weighing in on its merits or deficiencies after having done so!

 

[Hjandersen]

The book gives this credit throughout its entirety, even saying that some American breweries are trying to learn from the better EU breweries. You have literally judged a book by its cover.

Not really trying to be judgmental - more like trying to figure out if the book would have any value to me..

 

[Hjandersen]

Read the book or don't... but you might consider weighing in on its merits or deficiencies after having done so!

I normally try to figure out which books I'm going like before reading them.. (It's a habit that reduces wasting time and money..)
Where better to inquire than in a thread started by the author. In this case I've been made aware that there might more suitable books for me about sours..

 

[sweetcell]

The point being - It's a style of EU origin.. Credit where its due..

all beers originated from europe - so books can't be about american beer, because at some point hundreds of years ago it started in europe?

IPA, as a style, started in england. but the US's modern take on the IPA is unique. would it be wrong to write a book called "American IPAs"?

an not unlike IPAs, sours have taken their own direction in the US. the book doesn't ignore this fact... it just focuses on what is the current situation is.

 

[Pilgarlic]

I normally try to figure out which books I'm going like before reading them.. (It's a habit that reduces wasting time and money..)
Where better to inquire than in a thread started by the author. In this case I've been made aware that there might more suitable books for me about sours..

Inquire? You haven't. No questions. Curious form of inquiry.

 

[Hjandersen]

Inquire? You haven't. No questions. Curious form of inquiry.

And yet I got exactly the information I was looking for (within hours and from the author himself):

My book certainly dabbles in the Belgian, German, and English sour/funky beer traditions, but those weren’t the primary focus because Jeff Sparrow, Stan Hieronymus, and Ron Pattinson respectively beat me to the punch! It starts out with an overview of those country's traditions, and includes suggestions for beers to sample that illustrate them. As a way to give context to the beers and methods developed by US breweries over the last 20 years.

So thanks to Michael Tonsmeire and all others whom chimed with alternative suggestions..

I clearly touched a sore spot - it wasn't intentional..

 

[Oldsock]

I clearly touch a sore spot - it wasn't intentional.

It wasn't the subject, it was your wording.

 

[mbbransc]

It wasn't the subject, it was your wording.

Still is