I was asked to add those relatively late in the process, may have been after the Belgian Tech Editor did his thing.
American Sour Beer Book!
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I was asked to add those relatively late in the process, may have been after the Belgian Tech Editor did his thing.
Finished reading the book. Thanks for the wonderful book! I found it to be very well written and easy to understand, and very direct. I liked that you included some insights and partial recipes from commercial breweries, not necessarily that I am looking for making any specific clones at the moment. I especially like the chapter about commercial souring methods, and comparing how each brewery has it differences in production.
I did have a couple questions (again), and this seems to be an appropriate place to ask.
I see in the Spontaneous Fermentation chapter, you briefly discuss another commercial sour producer, Jester King. I am sure it was difficult to determine which commercial breweries to include in the commercial souring methods, and which to exclude when narrowing down the content for the book. I am wondering if you are able to elaborate a little more about the souring methods used by Jester King however. From what I have gleaned, their methods appear similar to Allagash- saision 1º fermentation (presumably in stainless), add cultured wild yeast for secondary fermentation (presumably in barrels). The three wild isolates they use at JK are unspecified, but in my limited tastings it seems there is definitely a farmhouse "funk" beyond what I would expect in a clean saison strain. I think Brett is a safe assumption therefore, especially considering the use of barrels. Their bottles appear to indicate presence of bacteria, presumably lactobacillus and pediococcus. The specific strains are unknown, but one could simply use bottle dregs. I am wondering if there are any other quirks to their process that you might be aware of.
I think that I'd like to try brewing a basic flemish red after reading your inspiring book. On page 311, you give a recipe. The recipe includes two yeasts and dregs. I cannot determine the intended use of each yeast, and was wondering if you could clarify? I am predicting that the ESB yeast would be for primary fermentation, and then the dregs and the Roeselare Blend would be added to the secondary with the oak cubes (or into a barrel if you have one).
I have read (not sure where) that re-using Roeselare Blend from a previous fermentation provides more pronounced funk and sour attributes than the initial use produces. I currently have a strong stout that has been soured (1º fermentation with Roeselare pitched from a smack pack) and is now in a secondary vessel aging about 8 months old now. I am contemplating racking that onto some cherries/raspberries possibly for 2-3 months to add some additional flavors and gain access to the yeast cake for souring another beer - the Flemish Red recipe from your book. I wonder if you would advise simply racking onto the entire yeast cake, or only a portion of the yeast cake? I know that for clean beers, using the entire cake would be grossly overpitching, but I am not certain if in a secondary fermentation sour beer, if there would be any negative consequences.
My last question is in regards to acquiring used barrels, aged hops, and sour cherries. Any general advice about where to look (online?) for this stuff? I assume that most commercial breweries (and homebrewers) use canned sour cherries unless that have the good fortune of having a local sour cherry orchard.
Thanks!
TD
I did have a couple questions (again), and this seems to be an appropriate place to ask.
I see in the Spontaneous Fermentation chapter, you briefly discuss another commercial sour producer, Jester King. I am sure it was difficult to determine which commercial breweries to include in the commercial souring methods, and which to exclude when narrowing down the content for the book. I am wondering if you are able to elaborate a little more about the souring methods used by Jester King however. From what I have gleaned, their methods appear similar to Allagash- saision 1º fermentation (presumably in stainless), add cultured wild yeast for secondary fermentation (presumably in barrels). The three wild isolates they use at JK are unspecified, but in my limited tastings it seems there is definitely a farmhouse "funk" beyond what I would expect in a clean saison strain. I think Brett is a safe assumption therefore, especially considering the use of barrels. Their bottles appear to indicate presence of bacteria, presumably lactobacillus and pediococcus. The specific strains are unknown, but one could simply use bottle dregs. I am wondering if there are any other quirks to their process that you might be aware of.
I think that I'd like to try brewing a basic flemish red after reading your inspiring book. On page 311, you give a recipe. The recipe includes two yeasts and dregs. I cannot determine the intended use of each yeast, and was wondering if you could clarify? I am predicting that the ESB yeast would be for primary fermentation, and then the dregs and the Roeselare Blend would be added to the secondary with the oak cubes (or into a barrel if you have one).
I have read (not sure where) that re-using Roeselare Blend from a previous fermentation provides more pronounced funk and sour attributes than the initial use produces. I currently have a strong stout that has been soured (1º fermentation with Roeselare pitched from a smack pack) and is now in a secondary vessel aging about 8 months old now. I am contemplating racking that onto some cherries/raspberries possibly for 2-3 months to add some additional flavors and gain access to the yeast cake for souring another beer - the Flemish Red recipe from your book. I wonder if you would advise simply racking onto the entire yeast cake, or only a portion of the yeast cake? I know that for clean beers, using the entire cake would be grossly overpitching, but I am not certain if in a secondary fermentation sour beer, if there would be any negative consequences.
My last question is in regards to acquiring used barrels, aged hops, and sour cherries. Any general advice about where to look (online?) for this stuff? I assume that most commercial breweries (and homebrewers) use canned sour cherries unless that have the good fortune of having a local sour cherry orchard.
Thanks!
TD
If you haven't seen it already, Garrett Crowell from Jester King says some interesting things about their process (particularly their yeast management) in this AMA thread: http://www.talkbeer.com/community/threads/garrett-crowell.7882/
Thanks for the link!
FredTheNuke
Well-Known Member
Barrels are quite expensive - use his Oak Cube formula in glass (.15 oz per gallon). Same results at a fraction of the price point.
Cherries - this one I have researched quite a bit. The below link is to a supplier that has a few FAQs about how much to use when adding to beer - aka Beer Friendly. (1 quart of 68 brix = 20lbs of cherries). Slightly strong for a 5 gallon batch but I LOVE cherries....
http://kingorchards.com/shop/?product=2
Best prices I've found. I'll be using their Cherry Juice Concentrate for a few of my sours very soon here... concentrated to 68 brix - this stuff won't freeze...
Have used King Orchards before to get canned tart (montmorency) cherries in water, no preservatives. Compared to fresh Balaton cherries, the results are inferior, for pies at least IMHO. The cost for fresh cherries was $9/lb and still is I believe (earthy delight . com something). Overnight shipping only. Cherries were excellent but expensive. Still looking for a source, but have a list or orchards to call. This season they are late and there is about 2 weeks or so until harvest, on account of the vicious winter this year. Ideally would like IQF or even bulk frozen with minimal processing from the local grocery, but have never seen them before in any significant quantity, and usually extremely expensive. I think in a beer the canned King Orchards will be my go-to unless I discover another option that's reasonable in terms of cost. Also, there is free shipping available from traverse bay farms on their cherry juice concentrate if you buy 6x16oz bottles, the King's Orchard price point is better however. It sounds like you have used the cherry juice concentrate before? How is it compared with whole cherries in beer?
TD
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FredTheNuke
Well-Known Member
This concentrate - yes. I have never done a side by side with whole cherries. I just know that whole $12-15 a pound around here as they are not grown here. This stuff is less than $1 a pound. Economics wins for me in this one.
Now Georgia an South Carolina Peaches are right down the street from me. A BUNCH of those are going into some ECY20 in the next few months.... For Peaches I think i'll target 3lbs per gallon!
Now Georgia an South Carolina Peaches are right down the street from me. A BUNCH of those are going into some ECY20 in the next few months.... For Peaches I think i'll target 3lbs per gallon!
Jester King has gone through a number of iterations of their process, and I'm no expert on it. Last I heard they were using beer from established barrels, blending them into the primary fermented beer to inoculate, then going into barrels for souring. Not sure how that has changed with the coolship online. Using their dregs and some 3711 would be a great start.
I tend to pitch all of the bugs/yeast together at the same time. Great results for me. You could get away with just pitching Roeselare if it is fresh and the beer is low gravity, but a healthy pitch of brewer's yeast is good to ensure a quick start. Similar story for using a yeast cake. I'd pitch a half cup of the slurry along with some fresh yeast.
I try to buy fruit in season, wash, freeze, and vacuum bag. There are lots of other cherry options: Russian River uses dried, Cambridge uses concentrate, you can even find frozen sometimes. I'm not up on the best online sources, looks like a couple others have already chimed in. Aged hops you can get from Hops Direct or Freshops usually (or just ask for old low AA% hops at the local homebrew store). Barrels are sporadic, Balcones show up on a few sites: http://www.homebrewing.org/Used-5-gallon-whiskey-barrel_p_2187.html and Woodinville sells direct: http://www.woodinvillewhiskeycostore.com/barrels/
Cheers, glad you enjoyed the book!
Weezy
Well-Known Member
I've been happy with the buying fruit in season and freezing it scheme. Tis the season too.
I don't know if this warrants another thread but a couple of related questions:
1. Hops and Lambic...the use of aged hops is to avoid bitterness but still get the antimicrobial benefits of the hop oils, yes? Also why these are more influenced by pedio than lacto, right? Could we use a low AA, high humulene oil, hop be used in a sub-175*F post boil addition instead of aged hops in the boil? How much hop flavor and aroma could we reasonably expect to survive 1+ years of aging on bacteria and Brett?
2. Oak character vs. Oxygen infusion...ever since reading Wild Brews (and gone unanswered since) I've wondered about the true influence and benefits of aging in oak barrels vs. The adhoc methods we use (oak chips, vessels of varying permeability, permeable carboy caps) are trying to replicate the effects of an oak barrel. The hiccup that I keep thinking about is if the Brett does benefit from some oxygen infusion over very long ferments and benefits from food extracted from the oak over such long time spans as well...are homebrew methods replicating this well? Oak cubes will be 'food'. But is O2 through a cap beneficial at all? The miniscule amount needs to penetrate the pellicle. Small barrels provide too much oak influence. Should we be looking for options?
I don't know if this warrants another thread but a couple of related questions:
1. Hops and Lambic...the use of aged hops is to avoid bitterness but still get the antimicrobial benefits of the hop oils, yes? Also why these are more influenced by pedio than lacto, right? Could we use a low AA, high humulene oil, hop be used in a sub-175*F post boil addition instead of aged hops in the boil? How much hop flavor and aroma could we reasonably expect to survive 1+ years of aging on bacteria and Brett?
2. Oak character vs. Oxygen infusion...ever since reading Wild Brews (and gone unanswered since) I've wondered about the true influence and benefits of aging in oak barrels vs. The adhoc methods we use (oak chips, vessels of varying permeability, permeable carboy caps) are trying to replicate the effects of an oak barrel. The hiccup that I keep thinking about is if the Brett does benefit from some oxygen infusion over very long ferments and benefits from food extracted from the oak over such long time spans as well...are homebrew methods replicating this well? Oak cubes will be 'food'. But is O2 through a cap beneficial at all? The miniscule amount needs to penetrate the pellicle. Small barrels provide too much oak influence. Should we be looking for options?
Maybe I misunderstood, but it was my impression that the beta acids are what confer the antimicrobial effect, not the hop oils. Also I thought the lacto was more inhibited by them than the pediococcus. As far as hop flavor and aroma, you are right, that none really makes it into your glass due to the prolonged aging.
I think for me, that the solera option is an attractive one. I'm looking for some 10-15 gallon barrels and would ideally want to try to find some that have lost most of their oak flavor. I suspect that after enough use, that you can get to the point where, even in smaller sized barrels, that there is little to no oak character. I want to move away from glass for safety reasons. Now I'm using a combination of glass and plastic carboys that I've acquired over the years.
One question for Oldsock, is about punch down. Some fruited sour beer brewers perform a punch down on their open fermented beers, but not the closed fermented ones ( I suspect simply because there is no means to do so). I have heard that some fruit, such as cherries, and blueberries and raspberries can lend an acetic character and its better to punch down. I'm wondering if even weighting them down with a plate or something would provide similar benefit.
Found a resource for pitted IQF tart cherries in four pound bags, shipped four bags (12# total) to a box (styrofoam lined). $48 ($4/lb) including cost of the box ($9.50), but NOT counting shipping. Both varieties are currently available. I am told that they will still have stock in the winter, and I'll probably try to order then so that I can save on shipping without having the fruit thaw. Thinking about one box of each variety for a ten gallon batch. Think I'll brew the beer soon, and save the cherry addition for the last few months of aging.
TD
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Weezy
Well-Known Member
I'm certain it was the oils. I thought it was that the oils literally glob onto the lacto bacteria, iirc?
I guess that sentence about pedio vs lacto can be mis read..."Also why these [lambic beers] are more influenced by pedio than lacto, right?"
Yes, I like the solera idea as well. Actually for a sour pale base beer (all pils ... some torrified wheat and flaked adjuncts specifically for bug food) to blend with random fresh beers of misc style, but I was thinking 10-15 gallon corney.
I guess that sentence about pedio vs lacto can be mis read..."Also why these [lambic beers] are more influenced by pedio than lacto, right?"
Yes, I like the solera idea as well. Actually for a sour pale base beer (all pils ... some torrified wheat and flaked adjuncts specifically for bug food) to blend with random fresh beers of misc style, but I was thinking 10-15 gallon corney.
Humulene isnt much of a factor in my understanding of a hops antimicrobial properties. I dont think a low temperature steep is very effective either, it is the isomerized alpha and oxidized beta-acids (both of which need boiling). If you are doing a spontaneous fermentation you could likely get away with simply targeting 20-25 IBUs of un-aged hops, which should be down near the bitterness threshold after a year or two of aging. If you are asking the biological reason that Pedio is less hop-sensitive than Lactobacillus (in general), sadly not my area of expertise.
I dont find oxygen to be an essential factor in aging sour beers. Adding some sub-threshold acetic acid can be beneficial for some styles/palates, as can low levels ethyl acetate. Oxygen that gets into the fermentor through any method is just as good for this purpose. I actually get Brett character the quickest when pitching at bottling, a very low oxygen environment. Oak is much more important for direct flavor contribution than it is for the tiny amount of cellobiose (which only some strains of Brett are capable of fermenting).
Oxygen is the only thing that will lead to the creation of acetic acid in beer. I dont know how fruit and punching down would play a role (other than allowing air in during the punch down) source? Pushing the fruit down into the beer would help with flavor and color extraction, and certainly could change the character of the beer, but I dont see how it would change the acid profile. I guess in an open fermentor I could see the fruit hanging out above the beer-line causing issues, but not many breweries age fruit beers open to the air.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
Excuse my ignorance then.
I was thinking we could potentially use fresh hops late rather than old hops early. Apparently not.
Limited benefit to oak? Hmmm, surprising. Corneys it is then.
Thanks for the reply, Mike.
I was thinking we could potentially use fresh hops late rather than old hops early. Apparently not.
Limited benefit to oak? Hmmm, surprising. Corneys it is then.
Thanks for the reply, Mike.
ChugachBrewing
Well-Known Member
Finished the book last night. Going to re-read as I started a month ago, but initial thoughts are: "if you are thinking of getting into sour beers, this is an excellent book to start with."
Gus_13
Cul de Sac Brewer
Just ordered mine to arrive tomorrow. I can't wait to read this one. It will be added to my other 2 parts of my "brewing bible." BLAM and Wild Ales are books I take everywhere with me! I'm sure this will be added in and fit quite nicely!
Ordered my copy on Kindle today. Will be reading tonight 
Great review of the book posted by Stan Hieronymus posted to his blog:
"I often receive questions about brewing sour beers, generally ones that are above my level of expertise. I am delighted that although the premise is different — in this case, not referring to questions I find simple and repetitive, but ones that should be answered by somebody who knows what he is talking about — that now I can reply, 'Read the $#&*% Tonsmire.'"
"I often receive questions about brewing sour beers, generally ones that are above my level of expertise. I am delighted that although the premise is different — in this case, not referring to questions I find simple and repetitive, but ones that should be answered by somebody who knows what he is talking about — that now I can reply, 'Read the $#&*% Tonsmire.'"
wow, mike - you just need some brazilians to make a t-shirt of Stan's quote, and you'll be on the same level as Palmer!!!
Gus_13
Cul de Sac Brewer
Awesome praise! I'm really looking forward to diving in.
wow, mike - you just need some brazilians to make a t-shirt of Stan's quote, and you'll be on the same level as Palmer!!!
The same group has shown interest in inviting me down, so that may just happen.
FredTheNuke
Well-Known Member
I smell MANCRUSH!!!
Pilgarlic
Well-Known Member
I know a lot of homebrewers and I read much more than most. I've been through Tonsmeire's book twice and spent hours more rereading and referencing. This book is rich with information, well-presented. Above all, it's a book that will allow you to brew beers you'd hoped one day to brew and get started today, with confidence. I've got three starters going right now: lacto from grains to sour 10 gallons of wort pre-boil, and one starter each of brett trois and brett lambicus. In a bit over a month I'll be serving the two resulting beers, both 100% brett primary fermented with a pre-soured wort, at a local fest even though they're my first 100% brett fermentations. The info found in this book has moved me down the road at an accelerated pace which is what I look for in a good brewing book.
I hereby deem the motto for the HBT Lambic subforum to be: RTFT (Read The F****** Tonsmeire).
Gus_13
Cul de Sac Brewer
I hereby deem the motto for the HBT Lambic subforum to be: RTFT (Read The F****** Tonsmeire).
Amen
Santé!
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
For anyone interested, I did video review of "American Sour Beers" on my youtube channel:
http://youtu.be/7rpTdBTgbns
http://youtu.be/7rpTdBTgbns
FredTheNuke
Well-Known Member
Oldsock,
What was your reasoning for the 0.15 oz of oak cubes per gallon? Is this 0.15 oz dry or weighed after soaking? Do you assume they are boiled to reduce the oak strength before use?
I ask because I had found detailed calculations on another site that come up with 57 square inches of barrel surface area per gallon of beer averaged with a standard 53 gallon wine barrel. The oak cubes I have are 1/2x1/2x3/8 inches. This equates to 2.5 square inches per cube. That would be 22.8 cubes per gallon of beer. 23 cubes weigh 0.6 oz dry. That is four times what you recommend.
What was your reasoning for the 0.15 oz of oak cubes per gallon? Is this 0.15 oz dry or weighed after soaking? Do you assume they are boiled to reduce the oak strength before use?
I ask because I had found detailed calculations on another site that come up with 57 square inches of barrel surface area per gallon of beer averaged with a standard 53 gallon wine barrel. The oak cubes I have are 1/2x1/2x3/8 inches. This equates to 2.5 square inches per cube. That would be 22.8 cubes per gallon of beer. 23 cubes weigh 0.6 oz dry. That is four times what you recommend.
actually it's 1.25 in^2 (see below). so Oldsock's suggestion is half of what your other source says... which isn't that surprising. there isn't a scientifically accurate, absolute value for adding oak. something we haven't spoken about is how long the oak is sitting in the beer... more time would require less oak.
http://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/geometry-solids/surfacearea.php
Arrheinous
Well-Known Member
Trying to reproduce the spontaneous fermentation you get from oak barrels for small-scale batches would be pretty cool.
FredTheNuke
Well-Known Member
Good catch! Although with that said that would double the amount of cubes necessary to simulate an actual barrel to 46 cubes or 1.2 ounces of dry cubes. Or has my brain fried from being outside all week building a deck roof in 100 degree heat???
I'd still like to know if he is measuring wet or dry. I need to compare a dozen wet cubes to a dozen dry cubes to see just how much liquid weight they pick up.
i'm pretty sure that the measurements for oak are done dry.
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