American Sour Beer – Book!

[masonsjax]

My copy arrived today! I read through some of it. It's very well written, I look forward to really digging in.

I caught a small typo on page 17, Oxyclean should be spelled Oxiclean.

 

[FredTheNuke]

Oldsock - I may have missed it in the book but one big question remains in my mind. For the recipes you post with a FG of less than "dry" (.998 to 1.002 in my opinion with wine typically ending on the lower end) how does the beer STOP there?

For example on page 333 your Sour Bourbon Barrel Porter has an FG of 1.014 with an ABV of only 8.8%. Why does it stop here - wouldn't the Brett and bacteria keep chugging down to 1.002 over time?

Now for your Courage Russian Imperial Stout Tribute on page 317 you mention to keep the FG at 1.020 and retain the residual sweetness you have to kill the Brett by crash cooling, fining and adding K Meta. This makes sense to me as to why the beer stops.

Sacc C yeast stops when it reaches maximum attenuation by yeast strain - my understanding or lack thereof is that Brett and bacteria are only limited by pH and ABV. Is the pH what causes the Sour Bourbon Barrel Porter to end at 1.014?

 

[Oldsock]

It depends on the strains of microbes you have. Some Brett/Lacto does not produce alpha-glucosidase for example. Not really sure what is in that barrel exactly, but it leaves residual gravity despite potent (but not overbearing) acidity. I sent a bottle to Nick at The Yeast Bay, not sure if he ever plated it.

At Modern Times playing with some isolates of Brett from Cantillon via Jason Rodriguez that exhibit less than 50% attenuation in standard wort. Alternatively you could generate lots of REALLY big dextrins that are too big (>9 glucose chains) for microbes to ferment.

In most cases you'd need to kill the bugs to get it to stop that high (or in the case of a sour I started at 1.120, top out on ABV).

 

[FredTheNuke]

OK - so YOU didn't stop it at 1.014. The brew stopped itself (Sacc C, Brett, Lacto, Pedio and all) and you simply waited until a consistent month to month FG was observed prior to bottling. Ah.

 

[Oldsock]

OK - so YOU didn't stop it at 1.014. The brew stopped itself (Sacc C, Brett, Lacto, Pedio and all) and you simply waited until a consistent month to month FG was observed prior to bottling. Ah.

Exactly. The Courage is the only batch I've forcefully stopped.

All the FGs are where my batches stopped, but your results will vary based on specific microbes/conditions etc.

 

[Weezy]

Let me be the first to curse Mike for writing this book...
1. I don't want to buy any more glass carboys,
2. I don't want to try to find space to store any more filled glass carboys for extended periods of time,
3. I'm out of kegs and tap space as it is,
4. It feels like a foster home trying to care for and feed multiple strains of bottle dregs.

ugh.

 

[digitalbullet]

Awesome book. Lots of technical detail without being dry.

 

[BGBC]

Ordered my copy over the weekend. I read and use the blog a lot and am looking forward to the book!

 

[lousbrews]

Pounding through it and I love it!
Great read thus far.

 

[tagz]

Great post on the blog today. It's the American saison chapter... Damn editors!

 

[Oldsock]

Great post on the blog today. It's the American saison chapter... Damn editors!

At one point the editor complained that it was almost impossible to cut anything because any time she tried I presented a great reason for why we should keep it. That worked for many of the smaller chunks, but when it came to the entire chapters I just did my best to bail the best stuff out to other places.

The trimmed stuff so far:
American Saison - Reimagining Farmhouse Brewing
Kvass - Liquid Sourdough Beer
Adding Spices and Herbs to Sour Beers
Gruits and Other Hopless Beers
Pairing and Cooking with Sour Beer
Commercial Microbe Descriptions
Bottle Dregs to Harvest

 

[TrickyDick]

Unbelievable.

That would drive me nuts if was a book I wrote.

Read the saison blog. Very nice. Question about bottle conditioning a saison. If you use a saison strain for primary fermentation, then bottle condition with Brett after the saison has reached terminal gravity: 1.) how much priming "sugar" and what kind of sugar should/could you use? 2.) how long would you expect it would take for the Brett to contribute its funk and achieve proper carbonation?

I would imagine that carbonation would be complete in two weeks, primarily because of the residual saison yeast, but that funk might take more time to develop. Max ferm temps and residual CO2 estimates never seem to be highly accurate in my experience. Would hate to wind up with an uncarbonated saison.

TD


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[Oldsock]

Adding Brett at bottling is inherently risky because it is so attenuative. There is no simple answer to your question because it would depend on the strain of Brett, the dextrin profile, and your desired carbonation.

The saison strain would likely ferment the priming sugar in standard time. However, the Brett could continue to generate additional carbonation for another year both from dextrins and sugars released as the brewer's yeast undergoes autolysis. A drop of about .003 is full carbonation for a saison, so that plus priming sugar is trouble.

I'd try to get the beer as dry as possible before bottling and prime with the standard amount. Brett doesn't need carbohydrates to make it's signature funky flavors. It'll take 3-6 months to get to a good place, but will keep evolving after that. Use thick bottles if you can, and sample regularly!

Good luck!

 

[Arrheinous]

Now what if there were some sort of modified bottle caps for sour beers that let off extra pressure beyond what's needed to serve with? Bottle caps with relief valves that could be purchased for low, medium, or high carbonation. Even if it cost pennies more that'd still be money toward securing the quality and safety of a sour beer after a year of aging.

There's been a lot of development in the product of sour beers and beer in general but not on the packaging it would seem. We're still using bottles and cans.

 

[MarshmallowBlue]

On thick bottles. Corsendonk's 11.2oz beers are wicked strong. I dropped one last night and while it was falling, I was like "so much for that bottle". Didn't break or even crack. Really thick glass.

In general I found European beers to be in better glass than American counterparts.

 

[suprchunk]

Esen, not Essen. Anderlecht, not Brussels (although a little later you actually have it as Anderlecht.)

Little annoyances. But that was just in the first 20 pages.

 

[suprchunk]

In general I found European beers to be in better glass than American counterparts.

That is correct, as they are designed for reuse. Not disposal like our crappy bottles.

 

[masonsjax]

Mike, on page 25 "Wort Production" under "Recipe Overview", what is indicated by some of the styles being italicized?

 

[Oldsock]

Mike, on page 25 "Wort Production" under "Recipe Overview", what is indicated by some of the styles being italicized?

Just that they (wit, saison, dubbel etc.) are foreign words being used for the first time.

 

[Oldsock]

Esen, not Essen. Anderlecht, not Brussels (although a little later you actually have it as Anderlecht.)

Little annoyances. But that was just in the first 20 pages.

I got Esen right for De Dolle on page 64 too... sorry for the inconsistencies.

Compiling the errata here: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/errata.html

 

[wingedcoyote]

Now what if there were some sort of modified bottle caps for sour beers that let off extra pressure beyond what's needed to serve with? Bottle caps with relief valves that could be purchased for low, medium, or high carbonation. Even if it cost pennies more that'd still be money toward securing the quality and safety of a sour beer after a year of aging.

There's been a lot of development in the product of sour beers and beer in general but not on the packaging it would seem. We're still using bottles and cans.

Corks do this to some extent, don't they? I don't know for sure, but I've always figured a corked&caged bottle would be less prone to explode because excess carbonation can push the cork out against the cage a little further.

 

[TrickyDick]

Possible errata (sorry didn't check your blog first to see if it is known).

P 81. Discussing pitch rates it says 5:1 ratio by cell count is recommended. Then it says the bacteria are only 10% the size of a yeast cell. Then it's says if pitching by volume assuming equal density, that the ratio would be 2:1.

I'm not a mathematical genius, but it seems confusing, and possibly mathematically incorrect to say a volume based pitch ratio of 2:1 is equivalent to a cell count based ratio of 2:1 due to difference of cellular size, which it infers is a 10:1 ratio, being that the bacteria is only 10% the size of the yeast. In my mind, it seems that a 2:1 bacteria to yeast volumetric ratio would equate to a 20:1 cellular pitch ratio when pitching an equal density culture.

Anyways, if my math is wrong I apologize.

TD

Edit- hmm, seems I was mis-reading the ratio which you specified bacteria to yeast of 1:2, which for some reason I mentally transposed into 2:1, the opposite. The 1:2 makes sense. Sorry.


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[Kershner_Ale]

Awesome book Michael! Thank you for providing us with such a great resource! Congrats on a great book.

Jeff


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[Oldsock]

Cheers everyone!

For anyone in the DC-area, I'll be signing copies at Right Proper Brewing from 5-7 PM tonight (7/2). They'll be pouring the tart/citrusy "Farmhouse Radler" Nathan and I brewed (started with a pure Lacto ferment, then their house mixed saison-Brett blend). Lots of citrusy hops plus actual citrus zest as well.

Likely more book events coming over the next few months at various breweries and bars.

 

[Cyclman]

Have been waiting anxiously for this book, have read the first few chapters- fantastic book! Great information, well explained, with appropriate history and background.

I love sours, and plan to learn to be good at them, thanks for being a big part of that!i

 

[MollyHatchet]

Got my copy yesterday afternoon and half way through chapter four! Thanks for a great book I just can't seem to put it down. The more I read the more I want to know. If you make your way up to the Harrisburg Pa area, please let me know, love to get my copy signed and hoist a sour with you!! Thank again for a great book!

CHEERS!


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[FredTheNuke]

You should come to Charlotte and get Lenny Boy's to work up some recipe and process info on their Kentucky Creeper!!!

Kentucky Creeper 4.4% ABV, Gluten Free! - This wild child was created in the heat of the summer using North Carolina staples! Our in-house culture delivers a fruity nose with a sour punch. Aged for months in a Kentucky Oak barrel, this will surely "creep" up on y'all!Ingredients: NC Watermelons, Elderberries, & NC Black Muscadine grapes and colored with Hibiscus flowers (pink color).

http://www.discoverlennyboy.com/

 

[fiveohmike]

Just got my book delivered today....great read so far, cannot wait to experiment over the coming years.

 

[Weezy]

The fermenters and wood aging chapter is the best assembly of such info on the subject anywhere. Thanks Mike. There is a little bit of that spread all over different. books, lectures, presentations, podcasts... this really does a tidy job of tying everything together into a meaningful summary through the writer's insight and experience.

Can't comment on the rest...i'm not done yet....

 

[suprchunk]

I got Esen right for De Dolle on page 64 too... sorry for the inconsistencies.

Compiling the errata here: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/errata.html

Yeah, I got to it a bit after posting this. Did the editor just breeze over names thinking they were probably correct? It happens.

Great book so far. I'll be dog-earing mine for years to come.

And thinks for the errata page, I'll have to ink the changes in my copy.