Alternative to Reflectix - Everbilt Insulation

[derekp83]

Anyone ever come across this alternative to Reflectix? It's called Everbilt, and it appears to be half the price. Would it have the same effect for insulating a kettle on an induction burner or for mashing?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-24-in-x-10-ft-Double-Reflective-Insulation-24x10DRI/314983628

 

[matt_m]

Everbuilt is just a Home Depot store brand.

 

[derekp83]

Everbuilt is just a Home Depot store brand.

Thought so. Thanks. I'll think I'll give it a shot.

 

[tracer bullet]

You'd probably have to compare them side by side for thickness, if they're actually containing any truly metallic layers, and so on.

Also as an FYI, it's basically just bubble wrap. It's a really crappy insulator compared to just about anything else in the world. Don't expect much from it, especially if you have it touching the kettle with no air gap between.

 

[derekp83]

You'd probably have to compare them side by side for thickness, if they're actually containing any truly metallic layers, and so on.

Also as an FYI, it's basically just bubble wrap. It's a really crappy insulator compared to just about anything else in the world. Don't expect much from it, especially if you have it touching the kettle with no air gap between.

You're the first person I've heard question it's value. Most posts I've read swear by it, especially when trying to heat up a kettle on an 1800w induction burner. Do you have any recommendations?

 

[tracer bullet]

Generally speaking for homes it's kind of worthless. It's intended to have an air space and even then it's a lower R-value. Actual fiberglass is far superior but of course harder to work with and not fun. Then again it's a bit apples / oranges so maybe it's worth a try.

 

[hotbeer]

Install Temperature (F)
-60 F - +160 F

Maybe for mashing.

 

[joshwhite126]

I’ve used it and it works fine. Added a sleeping bag and have about 2 degree temp loss over 60 minutes.

 

[Bassman2003]

It is great to see the industry embrace the double walled construction in the all in one designs. Wrapping a brewing vessel in anything is messy over time. But, is there a better way to insulate homebrew kettles? Stuff does spill from time to time so fabrics are not the best choice. Reflectix kind of is a packaged air gap in itself. If they made the outer layer with a higher R value it probably would be more effective.

 

[HopSing]

I'm currently using a fire retardant wool blanket. It works great. It will never melt to your kettle, as I've heard some off-brands of Reflextics will. It's washable, and does an outstanding job insulating. I had to play with how to best fold it to cover what I needed covered and I'm currently keeping it in place with 2 bungee cords, but I'm about to make the folds semi-permanent by sewing the edges. I also plan to sew in Velcro strips so I can ditch the bungee cords.

I've been using it on my electric kettle and definitely see a shorter time to boil by a few minutes and mash temps drop less than 5 degrees F during a 90 minute mash.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D1AJVHY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
~HopSing.

 

[DBhomebrew]

With just a fleece blanket, folded in half and wrapped about 2x, my stovetop mash (~4gal) loses 3°F in an hour. 4° when I go 90m. I bet if I threw the blanket in a hot dryer just before using I'd lose 1-2° in that first hour.

 

[twd000]

I wrapped some of my kids outgrown sleeping bags around my electric keggle. Way better insulation than the bubble wrap. If it gets wort spilled on it, I run them through the washing machine

 

[Dancy]

You're the first person I've heard question it's value. Most posts I've read swear by it, especially when trying to heat up a kettle on an 1800w induction burner. Do you have any recommendations?

I noticed a significant difference on my 8 gallon kettle for 5G batched on a 1800 W induction burner. I use it now on my Mash & Boil and can see a difference in the vigor of the boil.

 

[derekp83]

I noticed a significant difference on my 8 gallon kettle for 5G batched on a 1800 W induction burner. I use it now on my Mash & Boil and can see a difference in the vigor of the boil.

That's great to hear. You're using Reflectix, or a knock-off?

 

[derekp83]

With just a fleece blanket, folded in half and wrapped about 2x, my stovetop mash (~4gal) loses 3°F in an hour. 4° when I go 90m. I bet if I threw the blanket in a hot dryer just before using I'd lose 1-2° in that first hour.

That's awesome. I honestly don't have much of an issue with losing temps for mashing. Sure, I made go from say 152 to 149 after 30-45 minutes, but that's still a good mash as far as I'm concerned.

 

[derekp83]

I'm currently using a fire retardant wool blanket. It works great. It will never melt to your kettle, as I've heard some off-brands of Reflextics will. It's washable, and does an outstanding job insulating. I had to play with how to best fold it to cover what I needed covered and I'm currently keeping it in place with 2 bungee cords, but I'm about to make the folds semi-permanent by sewing the edges. I also plan to sew in Velcro strips so I can ditch the bungee cords.

I've been using it on my electric kettle and definitely see a shorter time to boil by a few minutes and mash temps drop less than 5 degrees F during a 90 minute mash.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D1AJVHY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
~HopSing.

Interesting. Definitely sounds like a good idea.

 

[bruce_the_loon]

I use 20mm polyethylene foam sheeting around my BIAB mash/boil kettle. The surface barely feels warmer than ambient after a 75 minute mash and mash temperature drops by around 1 degree C.

Specs for the product I'm using. https://www.sondor.co.za/uploads/downloads/2/19/spx 33 rev14.pdf

 

[T Murph]

This is the best use I've found for bubble wrap. This is how I keep a keg cold for hours. I just keep the top covered with ice. Works great in the Alabama and NW Florida heat.

 

[Dancy]

That's great to hear. You're using Reflectix, or a knock-off?

Reflectix. I pieced it together and sealed the edges with the aluminum-looking adhesive tape that was sold on a shelf nearby at the hardware store. I’ve used the same piece for 3 years+. If it gets a bit sticky, I give it a quick rinse or sponge it clean.

 

[jwhazel]

You're the first person I've heard question it's value. Most posts I've read swear by it, especially when trying to heat up a kettle on an 1800w induction burner. Do you have any recommendations?

While I would say that it's maybe better than nothing (maybe...), the issue is that people often use it incorrectly by wrapping it tight against the kettle. The Mfg themselves explain why you need an air gap, note the bold part in the middle:

WHY ARE AIR SPACES REQUIRED (IN EVERY APPLICATION)?​

For either a reflective insulation or a radiant barrier, an air space of a minimum thickness is required on the reflective side of the product. (Most Reflectix® products are reflective (shiny) on both sides.) The reflective insulation benefit is derived from the interaction of the highly-reflective surface with the air space. If the reflective surface is in contact with another building material, it becomes a conductor (transmitting the energy by conduction). An air space may be specified on one or both sides of the product (always on a reflective side). Enclosed air spaces, when instructed, are required to provide the stated R-value.

To be truly effective, they specify a list of gaps here: https://cdn.reflectixinc.com/wp-content/uploads/DIY-Air-Space-Requirements-Rev-0219.pdf, I would guess the closest one to brewing would be the water heater which specs it at 3/4" gap for R4.5 gain. Wrapping against the kettle surface means you only get R1.1 (which is what they rate the product at by itself). So at that point, literally just about any other material would be better. If you must use reflectix, this pic gives you an idea of how it should be done: https://cdn.reflectixinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/PP-Water-Heater.png

 

[Bassman2003]

Great post. Makes sense. I will re-wrap my HLT after seeing this.

 

[Brooothru]

While I would say that it's maybe better than nothing (maybe...), the issue is that people often use it incorrectly by wrapping it tight against the kettle. The Mfg themselves explain why you need an air gap, note the bold part in the middle:



To be truly effective, they specify a list of gaps here: https://cdn.reflectixinc.com/wp-content/uploads/DIY-Air-Space-Requirements-Rev-0219.pdf, I would guess the closest one to brewing would be the water heater which specs it at 3/4" gap for R4.5 gain. Wrapping against the kettle surface means you only get R1.1 (which is what they rate the product at by itself). So at that point, literally just about any other material would be better. If you must use reflectix, this pic gives you an idea of how it should be done: https://cdn.reflectixinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/PP-Water-Heater.png

I would assume the principle is the same in refrigeration? (Simply insulation in reverse, keeping the 'cold' in). I've got a 7.8 gal. kegmenter wrapped in Reflectix, chilled with glycol and a CoolStix. It's wrapped tight, but still is able to crash down to low 30sF with no problem in a 65F~67F ambient basement. That's about the same performance I get from my two 7 gal SS BrewTech conical fermenters with coils and neoprene jackets.

 

[Bassman2003]

After thinking about this, a two stage approach would probably be best. Fire retardant blanket, neoprene or yoga mat touching the kettle and an outer wrap of Reflectix to be the barrier.

 

[jwhazel]

After thinking about this, a two stage approach would probably be best. Fire retardant blanket, neoprene or yoga mat touching the kettle and an outer wrap of Reflectix to be the barrier.

I'm pretty sure material X + reflectix without an airgap is the same as reflectix + reflectix without an airgap. I.e. you will not net very much.

IF YOU INSTALL 2 LAYERS OF A REFLECTIVE INSULATION, DOES THE R-VALUE DOUBLE?​

With multiple layers of product and airspaces between each layer, enhanced performance will be gained. If the product is simply “doubled” (with no air space between the layers), a very minimal benefit is obtained, (R-1.1 (per layer) for the Reflective/Double Bubble product).

 

[Bassman2003]

True. I was thinking something like a blanket material which is not solid or sealed would act as an air gap as well as some insulation. Inside heat goes to the blanket/air gap and is trapped in by the reflectix creating a buffer. In researching insulation, that is the exact design of home insulation. Drywall to air gap filled with insulation trapped in by an outer layer (Tyvek etc...). Sound like it is correct?

 

[SanPancho]

True. I was thinking something like a blanket material which is not solid or sealed would act as an air gap as well as some insulation. Inside heat goes to the blanket/air gap and is trapped in by the reflectix creating a buffer. In researching insulation, that is the exact design of home insulation. Drywall to air gap filled with insulation trapped in by an outer layer (Tyvek etc...). Sound like it is correct?

no, there isnt an air gap. not in your walls. roof should have some, but thats for convective air movement, not necessarily for insulation per se. insulation touches your sheetrock and your exterior sheathing as long as you dont compress it.

the difference is that your typical fiberglass insulation is like 60-70% air by volume. and paper and fiberglass liners/batt are not good conductors. so there's little to no heat transfer. but because reflectix has metallic coating, this enables heat transfer by contact.

the easiest way to use reflectix and actually get some decent insulation is to essentially use a double wrap by folding it back on itself. you take foam backer rod (1/4 or 3/8 or 1/2") and run it around the kettle, then tape it to the inner layer so that it sits like ribs. then when you fold back the reflectix to make the second/outer layer you'll have an air gap.

some aluminum hvac tape to close the top and bottom edges should keep it all in place for easy setup/takedown.

 

[jwhazel]

True. I was thinking something like a blanket material which is not solid or sealed would act as an air gap as well as some insulation. Inside heat goes to the blanket/air gap and is trapped in by the reflectix creating a buffer. In researching insulation, that is the exact design of home insulation. Drywall to air gap filled with insulation trapped in by an outer layer (Tyvek etc...). Sound like it is

Addressing your house analogy first, primary insulation comes from the fill in the walls. Tyvek is a vapor barrier that can help prevent drafts through cracks/crevices. It doesn't technically add anything to your insulation but rather maximizes what you already have. On a kettle, it would be more analogous to the foil tape you would use around the seams of your insulation.

There is an important distinction to the bolded part in your comment: insulation is a solid with a lot of air in it, but it is not the same as an air gap. Insulation works by slowing heat transfer via conduction. Reflectix is a radiant barrier. A radiant barrier works by reflecting radiant (infrared) energy. As noted earlier, when it's placed in direct contact with another surface, it becomes a conductor. Placing it against the blanket is not much different than against the kettle - it can't reflect energy while it's simultaneously absorbing it.

If the primary goal is insulation, then the correct answer is to either increase the thickness to slow conduction (add another blanket) or provide an air gap around the blanket so that the reflectix can act as designed as a radiant barrier. Wrapping directly to either the kettle or a blanket isn't terrible, it just doesn't give much bang for your buck.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for the clarifications. Good to know. I knew Tyvek was sealed but I also thought it served as a radiant barrier. Also good to know about Reflectix conducting upon contact and radiating without contact. Air alone in the right setup will be a useful to slow conduction as long as a radiant barrier is there to seal in the temps.

So knowing all of the info, is there a better way to approach insulating these kettles than Reflectix with ribs?

 

[MuddyBrown]

There was a reddit post a long time back from a guy that compare layers and air gaps using Reflectix. In the end, don't use an air gap was the end result. When in doubt, do the experiment and find out if you can!

The posts in question on insulation.
http://fermware.com/mash-tun-insulation-comparisons-complete/
http://fermware.com/mash-tun-insulation-comparisons-part-ii/
Mash Tun Insulation Comparisons - fermware.com

http://fermware.com/reflectix-insulation-jacket-for-your-mash-tun/

 

[Bassman2003]

Very nice comparison. Thanks for posting. I wish he had a single layer of Reflectix as well as a neoprene jacket in the mix. Strange that the air gap fell short. I have an Anvil Foundry and the air gap does work well. After the boil I always let the wort sit for 20-40 minutes to settle and the temp holds surprisingly well.

The trend I see is sealing as well as having the top covered. I think the insulation needs to be sealed from any air flow and the top of the vessel needs to be covered, insulated and sealed as most of the heat leaves upward.

 

[jwhazel]

Those results look like mostly what I would expect. http://fermware.com/wp-content/uploads/026-Reflectix-Cooling-Summary.png

There is not much difference between a single layer of reflectix used properly as radiant barrier vs used as an insulator with multiple wraps to make up the R value. The fact that the additional tight wraps around the air gap didn’t perform any better is a bit of a surprise, but that tells me they would probably be equally useless wrapped tight around any other insulator.