All in one system sparging

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Velnerj

Velnerj

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I'm thinking about converting to an all in one system. I do 5 gallon (finished beer) batches. And am wondering about volume of my system and whether or not I can get away with no sparge to keep my brew day as simple as possible.

So a few questions:
1) If you use an all in one system and do no sparge...
A) What size is your system (and batch size?)?
B) What efficiency are you getting?
C) Do you have any tips on improving your efficiency with no sparge?

2) If you have an all in one system and you sparge....
A) What is your preferred method to sparge?
B) What efficiency are you getting?

Thanks!
 
3X rule...get a 15 gal kettle.

Conversion efficiency? A lot is related to crush, so crush finer. And mash a bit longer to ensure full conversion.

Sparge efficiency? A sparge will always pull more sugars out. But you may have to hold back some mash water for the sparge or plan to boil longer to steam off the excess water from the sparge process.
 
odie said:
3X rule...get a 15 gal kettle.

Conversion efficiency? A lot is related to crush, so crush finer. And mash a bit longer to ensure full conversion.

Sparge efficiency? A sparge will always pull more sugars out. But you may have to hold back some mash water for the sparge or plan to boil longer to steam off the excess water from the sparge process.
Click to expand...
I'm looking for mash efficiency. I understand there are a lot of variables there. But let's say I'll have 30l of post boil volume. If I mash with all the liquor at once what kind of efficiency should I expect? 65%? 80%?

As opposed to splitting my liquor, mashing thicker and doing at least one sparge. What might be the efficiency then? 75%? 85%?

I would just to know so that I can approximate my recipe to make up for the inevitable change in efficiency that will happen by changing systems.

If the delta between sparge and no sparge is huge I may consider how I'd like to set my system.

I understand there are a lot of variables but a ballpark figure would be helpful.
 
Velnerj said:
I'm looking for mash efficiency. I understand there are a lot of variables there. But let's say I'll have 30l of post boil volume. If I mash with all the liquor at once what kind of efficiency should I expect? 65%? 80%?

As opposed to splitting my liquor, mashing thicker and doing at least one sparge. What might be the efficiency then? 75%? 85%?

I would just to know so that I can approximate my recipe to make up for the inevitable change in efficiency that will happen by changing systems.

If the delta between sparge and no sparge is huge I may consider how I'd like to set my system.

I understand there are a lot of variables but a ballpark figure would be helpful.
Click to expand...
This chart contains all you need to know about lauter efficiency. Mash efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency. If your mash converts all the starch in the grain to sugar, then your mash efficiency will equal lauter efficiency. If you don't convert all the starch, then your mash efficiency will be significantly lower than your lauter efficiency. Conversion efficiency is primarily controlled by grain crush and mash time (finer crush converts faster.) If you want to play with some specific volume, grain weight, sparge, squeezing, etc, scenarios, go play with this spreadsheet.

Efficiency vs Grain to Pre-Boil Ratio for Various Sparge Counts.png


Brew on :mug:
 
Last edited:
Check out the anvil foundry site. Download the owners manual. Look for the section about sparge, no sparge, grain weights, and volumes. While it is not perfect and may not answer every question , it is a good place to start and provide a good introduction to AIO systems.
 
I have a Brewers edge mash and boil, original no pump version. I sparge and typically brew 3.25G batches with the occasional 5G batch. The M&B is a little small for full volume mashing on 5G batches IMO, but you could easily do it with a smaller batch. My BH efficiency is typically in the 75-78% range, but on my last batch I got 83%. I have found that mashing a little thin, 1.6-1.75 qt/# is the sweet spot for me, and double crushing my grain helps a lot with efficiency. Also stirring during the mash.

My process is to heat up my sparge water on the stove towards the end of the mash. At the end of the mash, I pull the grain pipe, vorlauf a couple of gallons of wort, and then slowly pour the sparge water over the grain bed with a pitcher. I pour slowly and try to distribute the water over the entire grain bed. When I hit my pre boil volume I'm done and proceed to the boil.

A couple of thoughts and observations about AIO systems...AIO systems all have their own idiosyncrasies and quirks. The only way to know how to tweak your recipes and process is to brew on the system of your choice and get to know how it wants you to brew. Plan on a few wonky brew days that you chock up to learning, and be open to changing your process and it will be all good. The other piece of advice is to know the capabilities of the AIO you get and keep your process within those parameters. Don't ask or expect the system to do things it was never designed or intended to do.

Cheers!
 
I have the Foundry 6.5 without a pump and brew 2.5 gallon, mostly session beers. I’ve done no sparge and sparge in it and get about 60-65% efficiency- that’s been my range over a year of using it.

I’m leaning towards always doing a sparge now and adding an extra lb if base grain ($1) to my recipes to hit my numbers.

You might have a different experience but that’s mine.
 
I don't know if it is of any help to you as my system is mostly home made built aground a 40lt boiler with a basket spun with a small geared motor from the top and a digital temperature controller, I make 30lt batches and start with 24lt of mash water, generally I use 3.5kg grain coarsely ground (hate stuck mashes) stir to begin mash with the basket spinning to help regulate temperature, stir again after 1 hour then test for starch, I then place it on a frame near the top and circulate my mash through the grain bed with a pump taking the wort from the Center to the top and over the wort, whilst whirlpooling until the wort is clear. I then pour hot water from a household kettle over the grains until I have 32lt of wort just a gentle pour spread over the full area. then boil with hops, I generally get around 1.034 which calculates to around 90 percent mashhouse efficiency.
 
I have an Anvil 6.5 gal Foundry system. It is one of the first generation models. I have experimented with sparging and no sparge and regularly do no sparge as my standard practice.

My efficiency ranges from 83% to 85% for mash efficiency and 78% to 80% for brew house efficiency. I have gotten mash efficiency in the high 80's to low 90's when I was making process changes with low gravity recipes.

With the Anvil, there is a built in inefficiency with the amount of water which is trapped between the side wall and the grain basket. This water does not take any active part in the mash and serves to dilute the gravity of the wort which does when the basket is removed.

So my process now is to do a standard mash with low gravity recipes (those under 1.042 gravity), lift the mash basket once during the mash for those recipes with gravity between 1.043 and 1.055, and twice during the mash for those recipes above 1.056 gravity. The lifting of the basket allows the water trapped on the sides to mix in and then become used in the mashing. Doing this keeps my mash efficiency in a predictable range as listed above for most of the recipes I brew.

Beyond this practice, I do line the basket with a BIAB bag and grind the grist medium-fine.
 
My issue with all in one units was always how to heat and store sparge water. I now use two Mash & Boil units; mash in one, drain to half my boil volume then transfer the grain and sparge/mash out in the other, drain and then combine. I've been averageing 83% efficiency with this set-up.
 
SFC Rudy said:
My issue with all in one units was always how to heat and store sparge water. I now use two Mash & Boil units; mash in one, drain to half my boil volume then transfer the grain and sparge/mash out in the other, drain and then combine. I've been averageing 83% efficiency with this set-up.
Click to expand...
From what I’ve read, the sparge water doesn’t necessarily need to be 168 degrees to wash off residual sugars. I just transitioned to a BIAB setup to shorten and simplify my brew day and plan to pour off 2 gallons of my strike water (approximately 165 degrees) into a 3.5 gallon Igloo cooler, then, after the mash, shower it over the grains through a colander and into a bucket, then back into the kettle for the boil. Can’t imagine the water will cool that much in 1 hour.
 
yorkeken said:
From what I’ve read, the sparge water doesn’t necessarily need to be 168 degrees to wash off residual sugars. I just transitioned to a BIAB setup to shorten and simplify my brew day and plan to pour off 2 gallons of my strike water (approximately 165 degrees) into a 3.5 gallon Igloo cooler, then, after the mash, shower it over the grains through a colander and into a bucket, then back into the kettle for the boil. Can’t imagine the water will cool that much in 1 hour.
Click to expand...
I did that for a while, but after heating the sparge water then I had to heat the strike water. It was doable, just extended my brew day. That and I came across some extra cash for another unit. Now with two units I can heat the strike and sparge water at the same time and I can do a mash out if I want. It works for me.
 
SFC Rudy said:
I did that for a while, but after heating the sparge water then I had to heat the strike water. It was doable, just extended my brew day. That and I came across some extra cash for another unit. Now with two units I can heat the strike and sparge water at the same time and I can do a mash out if I want. It works for me.
Click to expand...
I heat the full volume of water once. When I reach my strike temperature, I simply pour off a couple of gallons into the cooler before adding the grains.
 
I haven't used it yet for brewing, but I recently bought my wife a new tea kettle. Glass and will hold 1.8 liters, half a gallon and will heat to boiling in about 5 minutes. Figure I can heat one full container, mix with about another qt or so to get 150 to 170f water. sparge with that and repeat if needed or desired..
 
yorkeken said:
From what I’ve read, the sparge water doesn’t necessarily need to be 168 degrees to wash off residual sugars. I just transitioned to a BIAB setup to shorten and simplify my brew day and plan to pour off 2 gallons of my strike water (approximately 165 degrees) into a 3.5 gallon Igloo cooler, then, after the mash, shower it over the grains through a colander and into a bucket, then back into the kettle for the boil. Can’t imagine the water will cool that much in 1 hour.
Click to expand...
Sparge water doesn't need to be heated at all. You can sparge with cold water and not lose efficiency (if you have 100% conversion, or did a mash out.) All of the sugar created in the mash is already dissolved (in solution), so you don't need warm water to help dissolve residual sugar. All you are doing with a sparge is diluting the high concentration sugar solution (wort) clinging to the grain bits, so that when you drain after sparge, the sugar solution left clinging to the grain bits is much lower concentration, so less sugar is left behind with the grain.

If you only have one vessel in which to heat water, then not pre-heating the sparge water will not increase your time from start of heating strike water to boiling. (You might have to think about that one for a while, in order to convince yourself it is true.) If you have multiple vessels for heating strike and sparge water, then heating the sparge water will shorten the time from start to boil.

Brew on :mug:
 
I wondered about the need to heat sparge water.

I'm doing BIAB (bag in a basket). I now mash with 1+ gallons less than usual and after I pull the basket I let it drain...after it's well drained I take a garden hose and sprayer, turn the nozzle to "mist" and mist the top of the grain bed so there is no channeling or tunneling...I keep misting until it sparges enough to reach my pre-boil target volume. Then I'll pull the bag and let it hang and drain...another 1/2 gal-ish comes out and that's my boil off amount.
 
I've been brewing on a 10.5 gallon Foundry using 240v for the past year. My efficiencies have been in the toilet most of the time too (~60s), this is mashing full volume.

Starting with my next batch this weekend I'm going to start sparging and see how that effects my numbers. I really have enjoyed the convenience of full volume mashing, but I wouldn't mind a little extra work for some improved efficiencies.
 
odie said:
I wondered about the need to heat sparge water.

I'm doing BIAB (bag in a basket). I now mash with 1+ gallons less than usual and after I pull the basket I let it drain...after it's well drained I take a garden hose and sprayer, turn the nozzle to "mist" and mist the top of the grain bed so there is no channeling or tunneling...I keep misting until it sparges enough to reach my pre-boil target volume. Then I'll pull the bag and let it hang and drain...another 1/2 gal-ish comes out and that's my boil off amount.
Click to expand...
I'm waiting for people to lose their mud over you using a garden hose!
 
rgregoryirving said:
I've been brewing on a 10.5 gallon Foundry using 240v for the past year. My efficiencies have been in the toilet most of the time too (~60s), this is mashing full volume.

Starting with my next batch this weekend I'm going to start sparging and see how that effects my numbers. I really have enjoyed the convenience of full volume mashing, but I wouldn't mind a little extra work for some improved efficiencies.
Click to expand...
I did a 2 gallon sparge for a 5.5 gallon batch (as described in post #11) and gained 10 points compared to my previous 2 vessel KRIMS set up which was a full volume mash. Clocked in @ 78% BH efficiency yesterday. FYI, I give the bag a decent, but not a crushing squeeze, my mill is set to .025 and I condition my grain the night before with water @ 2% of the grain bill weight.
 
I can't speak to any efficiency differences with cold versus hot sparge water, but I use hot water in my AIO because it reduces time to boiling. When I have used cooler sparge water, the wort temp drops during the sparge and then takes more time to heat to boiling. Using hot water for the sparge reduces or eliminates temp loss and it takes less time to get to boiling.
 
Coastalbrew said:
I can't speak to any efficiency differences with cold versus hot sparge water, but I use hot water in my AIO because it reduces time to boiling. When I have used cooler sparge water, the wort temp drops during the sparge and then takes more time to heat to boiling. Using hot water for the sparge reduces or eliminates temp loss and it takes less time to get to boiling.
Click to expand...
Did you heat the sparge water in a separate vessel? If not, did you count the time you spent heating the sparge water? I said same total amount of heating time, not heat from mash to boil.

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
Did you heat the sparge water in a separate vessel? If not, did you count the time you spent heating the sparge water? I said same total amount of heating time, not heat from mash to boil.

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...
I heat my sparge water on the stove top in a large stock pot. I start it about 20 minutes from the end of the mash and it is hot when I'm ready to use it. It heats at the same time I'm mashing so no extra time required.

Cheers!
 
Coastalbrew said:
I heat my sparge water on the stove top in a large stock pot. I start it about 20 minutes from the end of the mash and it is hot when I'm ready to use it. It heats at the same time I'm mashing so no extra time required.

Cheers!
Click to expand...
Ok, that's different than what I made a recommendation for.

Brew on :mug:
 
I use a 35L Brewzilla. I keep a side kettle, and when I raise the malt pipe, I let it drain a few minutes before moving into the side kettle. I can then start heating up the boil while sparging in the side kettle. I usually just slowly pour over1-2 gallons of room temp water, pausing whenever th water pools on top of the grain. Then dump the extra sparged wort back into the main kettle. I usually get 75-85% efficiency (but I also tend to mash lower than most).
 
I have my home water heater set at 130°f, i use the kitchen sink sprayer to sparge, with the bag of grains over a brew bucket so i know how much water I've used. Works great for me
 
There’s no reason to hot sparge with BIAB. I did a test one time on my setup, and the sugars available from a warm (but not hot) sparge water to be about 0.012 OG. It wasn’t as much as you think.

If you are going to rinse the grains, just use ambient temperature sparge water. Once in my beginners insanity I figured I’d heat the sparge water to near boiling. I thought it would speed bringing it all up to boil. WRONG!

All I did was extract a bunch of tannins from the husks which produced a batch of phenolic beer. I ended up calling it a “Belgian” because of that, but was a total disaster.

So, just rinse it cool, if you are worried about efficiency, just add a handful of more grain to your mash!
 
Some of the all-in-one systems like mine can’t handle the volume of a full volume mash, so you would need to add water for the boil anyway. Might as well pull the grain basket and pour the water over the grains for a sparge. I do this while the wort below is heating to boil. I’m one to cut any corner I can but pour over sparging is as simple as it gets if you have a basket and not a bag. I currently heat the sparge water on my stove but will get a unit to heat the water next to the unit soon. I’ve done cold water sparse but it just takes a little longer to boil.
 
Spivey24 said:
Some of the all-in-one systems like mine can’t handle the volume of a full volume mash, so you would need to add water for the boil anyway. Might as well pull the grain basket and pour the water over the grains for a sparge. I do this while the wort below is heating to boil. I’m one to cut any corner I can but pour over sparging is as simple as it gets if you have a basket and not a bag. I currently heat the sparge water on my stove but will get a unit to heat the water next to the unit soon. I’ve done cold water sparse but it just takes a little longer to boil.
Click to expand...

My issue with that method is you can't see or access the wort while you'r waiting on that sparge to drain. You can start heating to boil, but you can't add hops or anything else. And for me, the sparge draining usually takes longer than the heating to boil. So just sparging into a different kettle winds up saving time because I don't have to delay anything while waiting on the sparge to drain and can just dump the sparge water into the boil at almost any later point.
 
SFC Rudy said:
I'm waiting for people to lose their mud over you using a garden hose!
Click to expand...
I use a gallon less then calculated full volume and tend to use either room temp water or water I heated a bit in the microwave to sparge. This has worked for me in my Foundry and similar when I did biab in a kettle and dunk sparged.
As to the hose, hopefully not a regular garden hose. These days you have no idea what metals are used in the plastic. The white rv water hoses are safest.
 
GoodTruble said:
My issue with that method is you can't see or access the wort while you'r waiting on that sparge to drain. You can start heating to boil, but you can't add hops or anything else. And for me, the sparge draining usually takes longer than the heating to boil. So just sparging into a different kettle winds up saving time because I don't have to delay anything while waiting on the sparge to drain and can just dump the sparge water into the boil at almost any later point.
Click to expand...

Good points. I have my basket on a winch so I can lift it high enough to access the wort if needed. Last few times I have gone into the boil while still draining, but I may look for a container big enough to drain into so I don’t have to have it hanging there dripping. My issue is the basket plus 26lbs of wet grain is so heavy. Even with the winch I have to swing it out while lowering it, so the more the grains are drained the better.
 
Spivey24 said:
Good points. I have my basket on a winch so I can lift it high enough to access the wort if needed. Last few times I have gone into the boil while still draining, but I may look for a container big enough to drain into so I don’t have to have it hanging there dripping. My issue is the basket plus 26lbs of wet grain is so heavy. Even with the winch I have to swing it out while lowering it, so the more the grains are drained the better.
Click to expand...

The tricky part is that even with the side kettle, you need somewhere to set the basket when you go to dump kettle 2 into kettle 1.
 
doug293cz said:
If you only have one vessel in which to heat water, then not pre-heating the sparge water will not increase your time from start of heating strike water to boiling. (You might have to think about that one for a while, in order to convince yourself it is true.) If you have multiple vessels for heating strike and sparge water, then heating the sparge water will shorten the time from start to boil.
Click to expand...
Actually, with one heating vessel which also serves as the mash tun, the time from the "start of heating strike water to boiling" decreases by not pre-heating the sparge water along with the strike water. The thermal loss during the mash period in which the sparge water is separately held has to be recouped in the boil stage. "(You might have to think about that one for a while, in order to convince yourself it is true.)" Thanks for the challenge!

The sugar is in solution and is way below saturation level hence a cold water rinse will work equally well. Plus there is the time you save in handling and storing the heated sparge water.
 
GoodTruble said:
My issue with that method is you can't see or access the wort while you'r waiting on that sparge to drain. You can start heating to boil, but you can't add hops or anything else. And for me, the sparge draining usually takes longer than the heating to boil. So just sparging into a different kettle winds up saving time because I don't have to delay anything while waiting on the sparge to drain and can just dump the sparge water into the boil at almost any later point.
Click to expand...
Yes agreed, I’m using anAF 6.5 and I can’t see either.?which gives me the idea for a dip stick.
 
Martys1 said:
Yes agreed, I’m using anAF 6.5 and I can’t see either.?which gives me the idea for a dip stick.
Click to expand...

I use the cake pan mentioned above.

* Lift basket, let it start draining
* Squeeze the bag a little bit (I use a bag in the pipe, but of course you could press your grains with something too)
* Move the pipe over to the cake pan to finish draining
* Go about the rest of my boil prep steps while it does so
* Give the grains one more squeeze
* Dump the collected wort in with the rest
 
tracer bullet said:
Here's what I use, it works great. And stores well since the pot I keep a lot of equipment in just barely nestles inside of it. It's a "cake pan":

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000VLIHS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestion! Does the malt pipe fit inside that 12" cake pan, or does it sit up on top of the edges? (Having something that would catch the little exterior nubs and suspend the malt pipe a bit would be great).
 
BarryBrews said:
Actually, with one heating vessel which also serves as the mash tun, the time from the "start of heating strike water to boiling" decreases by not pre-heating the sparge water along with the strike water. The thermal loss during the mash period in which the sparge water is separately held has to be recouped in the boil stage. "(You might have to think about that one for a while, in order to convince yourself it is true.)" Thanks for the challenge!

The sugar is in solution and is way below saturation level hence a cold water rinse will work equally well. Plus there is the time you save in handling and storing the heated sparge water.
Click to expand...
Yep. I didn't want to go into that level of detail. Your last paragraph paraphrases something I have written many times.

Brew on :mug:
 
GoodTruble said:
Thanks for the suggestion! Does the malt pipe fit inside that 12" cake pan, or does it sit up on top of the edges? (Having something that would catch the little exterior nubs and suspend the malt pipe a bit would be great).
Click to expand...

It sits inside, but that's actually fine if you're thinking about what it will collect. The pan holds a crap load of liquid, and I give the bag a touch of squeezing before I move the pipe over. Plus the feet are like 2" tall as well, keeping everything pretty high and dry.
 

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