Briess malt is still a pretty good selection. If you can order those for about $7/bag shipping in pallet form that would be pretty close to what we used to pay through CMG
All Group Buy Participants - NCM Price Change
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Briess malt is still a pretty good selection. If you can order those for about $7/bag shipping in pallet form that would be pretty close to what we used to pay through CMG
bmason1623
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I really hope the mods delete this thread. It's hurting us more than helping us. $0.02
Olive Drab
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how so?
To CMG homebrewing group buys were just a drop in the bucket.
With the number of homebrewers increasing by huge numbers every year as well as the demand from breweries and LHBS's increasing daily they are not worried in the least. I really think CMG could care less about the business of selling directly to end users. CMG realizes there are other malt suppliers out there and they don't want to upset breweries or LHBS's - their biggest customers.
The point is the demand for malt is steadily and quickly increasing. They are losing no money by refusing to sell to group buys, we should really consider that they were doing us a favor all those years by allowing it. Manufacturers almost ALWAYS sell through distributors, not directly to end users.
bmason1623
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I feel like this thread is a case of "what have you done for me lately". NCM has been good to us and we should acknowledge it. If we are hopeful in getting some kind of resolution that favors both parties we should stop bashing them. Honestly, where else can we go?
Hey at the end of the day this really ammounts to a business decision. If we were totally insignificant they might not have done these deals with us in the first place. Our business meant something to them. Now we need to figure out what the next best alternative is. As I have said before, I think it would be wise if the organizers of these group buys got their numbers together. knowing just how much economic power we homebrewers wield could proove to be eyeopening. Or not. Just saying. What worries me is that now that we're cut off from bulk savings, what will the HBS do to grain prices. They kinda got us by the balls. Any one who brews small extraxt kits should know that it costs about the same to brew 2 cases as it does to buy them. Isn't that at least partly why we like all grain? It's cheaper. What will we do if this time next year we have to pay 30-40 bucks a case just to brew all grain?
soonami
Well-Known Member
I don't think people are bashing them. Many just want to know why the sudden change in policy without any notification. As a business, NCM isn't required to give us homebrewers and special treatment, but the "penalty" against homebrewers seems not to be fair. Group buys have paid them a fair price for the grain, made arrangements for delivery and in general are in good standing. They aren't making less money or more inconvenienced by homebrewer group buys.
What people dislike is the possibility that LHBS or other businesses are pressuring them to stop selling directly and that's why they are doing it. And then not having the option to buy in bulk. I shop at a lot of different stores and I am loyal to the places I shop, but I will shop for convenience, service, and price. My LHBS offers convenience, good advice, and great camaraderie, but the prices for some things like bulk hops or grain is not as good as other sources. Hopsdirect has 13% AA hops now for around $6+shipping, most LHBS sell hops at $2/oz.
Other people say that many manufacturers don't sell to end consumers, which is true. But if you go to a manufacturer and want to put in an order that is at least their minimum (which may be a huge pallet) for tires, hats, whatever, they will usually sell it to you. But this now seems to not be the case. I know people that have gotten money together for a group buy of a production run of jeans, a barrel of whiskey, a pallet of glassware, etc.
What people dislike is the possibility that LHBS or other businesses are pressuring them to stop selling directly and that's why they are doing it. And then not having the option to buy in bulk. I shop at a lot of different stores and I am loyal to the places I shop, but I will shop for convenience, service, and price. My LHBS offers convenience, good advice, and great camaraderie, but the prices for some things like bulk hops or grain is not as good as other sources. Hopsdirect has 13% AA hops now for around $6+shipping, most LHBS sell hops at $2/oz.
Other people say that many manufacturers don't sell to end consumers, which is true. But if you go to a manufacturer and want to put in an order that is at least their minimum (which may be a huge pallet) for tires, hats, whatever, they will usually sell it to you. But this now seems to not be the case. I know people that have gotten money together for a group buy of a production run of jeans, a barrel of whiskey, a pallet of glassware, etc.
They will do what they have always done, be competitive or not. The market dictates the price of everything unless it is government regulated. If 100% of the shops all agreed to price fix, that's one thing. However, it just takes one rebel that wants to operate on a discount and volume model and it forces all the others to adjust or provide a value added service to compensate.
You guys should call up the better bottle people and try to get a few skids delivered. NCM was the only homebrew related master distributor who ever entertained an end user group buy so they are basically just falling into line with the rest of the world in every supply chain and industry.
Possible solution? Talk to your LHBS and tell them your club is willing to add one full pallet of grain to their next pallet order and you're willing to pay $5 a sack over cost. That's $200 profit for them for holding stock for 10 minutes. If they decline, tell them you're going to the next store and advising your club to boycott on all ingredients. If you truly have the upper hand with numbers, they will listen.
geckholm
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Capitalism rocks.
soonami
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I think this is the answer then if NCM wont' sell directly to homebrewers anymore
You approach a store and tell them that you will take orders directly, be responsible for collecting individual payments, and be there to distribute the grain. You'll offer them a fee, $200 for their trouble to just put in the order for you and you'll take care of the rest. Convince them that this act of good will mean increased business for them in the future and they make a tidy profit for not much work.
Alternatively, you could try and convince your LHBS to lower the prices on their bulk base malt, saying that if they lower prices to $XXX, which is cheaper than NCM direct prices, they'll get enough volume to recover losses in profits from dropping prices.
mvanwie
Well-Known Member
I'm all for fair trade and competition; but when the man conspires to step on the little guy, I'm all for putting the man out of business by any legal means necessary.
Just remember, CMG is not the "man" here...
Im not sure where there's "bashing" going on, people are just interested in why the sudden change, and rightfully so. NJ/Philly was on their 36th group buy which = quite a bit of grain, surely as much as some homebrew stores are purchasing. We've given them quite a bit of business over the years, I think it's fair to ask for an explanation on the sudden change. The thing that is interesting to me is that they are still willing to allow homebrewers to purchase from them, they're just banging them for a little extra coin for some reason. I could see getting out of dealing with us and purely sticking to breweries lhbs's but that doesn't seem to be the case. Just find it interesting is all. There's obviously some driving force behind it, it'd be interesting to find out what that force was.
Olive Drab
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We are just trying to figure out what is going on.
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CidahMastah
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At this point this thread can't really do damage. We currently are getting crap prices for grain from NCM.
Perhaps you would continue to buy milk from your local grocer if they raised the price by 20-40%. I wouldn't. I would look to see what other grocer's are selling it for and go with the better price
I really don't see any harm in banding together and looking for solutions. Nobody is cursing out NCM. We do have a right to be upset about an unjustified change in price thought.
Perhaps you would continue to buy milk from your local grocer if they raised the price by 20-40%. I wouldn't. I would look to see what other grocer's are selling it for and go with the better price
I really don't see any harm in banding together and looking for solutions. Nobody is cursing out NCM. We do have a right to be upset about an unjustified change in price thought.
Xpertskir
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goddamn apple coalitions
dcHokie
Well-Known Member
I posted some of this already in the MD/DC/VA thread:
Country Malt Group bought BrewCraft in 2010, essentially acquiring an existing distribution channel for homebrewers. I think this coupled with some pushback by some of their larger homebrew shop customers likely led to the policy change.
Another distributor option in addition to GW KENT "might" be CARGILL http://www.cargillfoods.com/na/en/products/malt/malt-specialty-products-group/index.jsp I called Cargill re: setting up a food coop to see if they would sell bulk grain and was referred to a regional sales rep. Haven't heard back from her yet.
Personally, I see 3 primary options:
my $0.02
Country Malt Group bought BrewCraft in 2010, essentially acquiring an existing distribution channel for homebrewers. I think this coupled with some pushback by some of their larger homebrew shop customers likely led to the policy change.
Another distributor option in addition to GW KENT "might" be CARGILL http://www.cargillfoods.com/na/en/products/malt/malt-specialty-products-group/index.jsp I called Cargill re: setting up a food coop to see if they would sell bulk grain and was referred to a regional sales rep. Haven't heard back from her yet.
Personally, I see 3 primary options:
- Adapt. Circumvent NCM's policy by becoming a licensed entity like a brewing COOP. Downside, they can duck and weave and change the policy again.
- Boycott. Push back on NCM's customers, the homebrew shops themselves. Tell them we don't want to do business with NCM and encourage them to find a new grain supplier.
- Strategic support of a direct competitor. Band together in greater numbers and leverage our buying power with another bulk distributor. Take that business away from NCM and the lhbs directly. I have to think that if NCM is this big that there is a smaller company that wants that chunk of business. *I'm sure someone will chime in that we don't want to hurt the lhbs, but bulk grain is (or should be) a small profit, heavy item.
my $0.02
in my opinion,
#1 is unlikely to work: they don't want to sell directly to us, they want us to go through their retailers (LHBS). forming a coop likely isn't going to change this. besides, they want to see a brewing permit or a retail license & show involvement in homebrew supply retailing. these aren't things a coop like ours could show.
#2 isn't going to be effective. if i was a LHBS owner and you came in asking me to support a channel that was directly competing with my ability to sell to you... well, you can guess how supportive i'd be. i might be sympathetic but i'm not going to make a major business decision like ditching a major distributor based on something that isn't going to benefit me. bulk grain buyers don't have that much clout with the LHBS. we're not buying bulk from them now, and this plan won't change that.
#3 is to my liking - move our business elsewhere. the root of capitalism is voting with your wallet.
i do take slight issue with:
and who says that bulk grain should be small profit? it's what we've had until now, it's what we're used to, but we're not talking about access to healthcare or the right to vote... let's not turn bulk grain purchases into a civil liberties case.
dcHokie
Well-Known Member
I simply meant that I doubt bulk grain is a major profit center for most lhbs. The margins are likely low, the shipping costs are high, it takes up a lot of storage space, its mostly purchased by a small segment of the overall lhbs customer base and generally isn't sold in mass quantities.
johns
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Thinking about getting into more mead making. 5 gallon bucket of honey cost about 140 + shipping. Thats wholesale. If thier pricing gets out of hand than there is always the guy down the road. Apiaries are all too willing to expand and educate the public on the relevence of bees. I get 25 gallons of mead from this. My meads are pretty good also.
I also hear Napa gives away free grapes if you vollenteer with the crush. They have some fine grapes in the vally. There are scores of vinyards there (big and small).
Maybe I will find out about growing my own barley field.
If grain gets too expensive then that will be my route.
I also hear Napa gives away free grapes if you vollenteer with the crush. They have some fine grapes in the vally. There are scores of vinyards there (big and small).
Maybe I will find out about growing my own barley field.
If grain gets too expensive then that will be my route.
johns
Well-Known Member
Good point. I have never seen any grain silos at the LHBS, but I have seen them at the breweries.
Why does being a coop mean we have to get the grain from NCM? If we formed an "east coast grain coop," and leased a wharehouse, we could basically become our own suppliers. We could go straight to the maltsters for the grain. Coop members could be any small craft brewer and any home brew group that was willing to buy a minimum quantity of grain. We have years of data on what people buy and how much. If the volume is high enough to support it I'm sure we could find someone to manage it for a reasonable salary.
I dunno. I think we are staring the LHBS margin in the face as we now have to pay it. Its a pretty decent margin. And storage doesnt seem to me to be much of an issue for them cause I just called for a quote on 10 bags from my LHBS (it's one of the biggest in the Philadelphia area) and they told me that if I wanted that much I would have to wait about a week. Big f'n deal eh? To their credit they did agree to a 10% discount for that much. But still, the profit margin is is close to 40%. Which to be fair is a perfectably reasonable margin in my opinion. My point is that we all-grainers are a pretty sizeable group. Many of us aspire to open our own breweries. We owe it to ourselves to see if we can forge better deal.
I say we challenge their new business model and everyone orders 1 lb of every grain. See if they calculated that into their operations.
Everyone order on the same day, then call everyday for a status.
I'd like to see how many 1lb bags of grain they're willing to fill to make a few extra dimes per lb.
Everyone order on the same day, then call everyday for a status.
I'd like to see how many 1lb bags of grain they're willing to fill to make a few extra dimes per lb.
i say we challenge their new business model and everyone orders 1 lb of every grain. See if they calculated that into their operations.
Everyone order on the same day, then call everyday for a status.
I'd like to see how many 1lb bags of grain they're willing to fill to make a few extra dimes per lb.
rotflmfao!
forstmeister
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atjsparty said:I say we challenge their new business model and everyone orders 1 lb of every grain. See if they calculated that into their operations.
Everyone order on the same day, then call everyday for a status.
I'd like to see how many 1lb bags of grain they're willing to fill to make a few extra dimes per lb.
And make sure to get it crushed too!
Seriously though, isn't the ability to order by the pound and get it crushed stepping all over the LHBS already?
forstmeister said:
Good call! Yes, that was also one of the points I was making.
forstmeister
Well-Known Member
After thinking about this a little more, it really looks like cmg is simply realizing their potential in the homebrew market. They are pricing similarly to other retailers and offering to crush just like retailers. I don't think they are working in the best interest of the LHBS, just in their own best interest. They were willing to give us great pricing before, but maybe the volume got to be a problem with their current contract restrictions?
tippetsnapper
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I just bought a grain mill prior to this happening, banking on the bulk grain buys to cover the cost over a few batches, I guess I'm SOL now. I don't know of a single LHBS that is really hurting financially, this is just muscle flexing to allevaiate group buys. Honestly, what is the growth in the LHBS industry, its gotta be huge and I just dont see a downturn in the future.
I had a buddy open up a LHBS, near to a large store (keystone). He had problems getting vendors to ship/open an acct because he was 'close' to them....aka 20+ minutes away.
I had a buddy open up a LHBS, near to a large store (keystone). He had problems getting vendors to ship/open an acct because he was 'close' to them....aka 20+ minutes away.
BrewKnurd
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I say we challenge their new business model and everyone orders 1 lb of every grain. See if they calculated that into their operations.
Everyone order on the same day, then call everyday for a status.
I'd like to see how many 1lb bags of grain they're willing to fill to make a few extra dimes per lb.
Minor detail... their document about selling to homebrewers says they're charging a $5 handling fee on all orders less than $15 bucks. So they covered themselves against this plan.
justuskenney
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Minor detail... their document about selling to homebrewers says they're charging a $5 handling fee on all orders less than $15 bucks. So they covered themselves against this plan.
ahh... order a few pounds. I'm in.
This is a not a bad idea, I am sure part of the reason HBS charge so much more for bulk grain is the storage factor. If they knew that they A) could keep less bulk grain on hand (because more people were in on the bulk buy) and B) could make a guaranteed XXX on a pallet once or twice a month, it might be worth it.
But it could be if we were ordering through them...once again...where are those stats from these buys?
Now we are talking...Who has land to put a silo on? Every brings their grain storage bins and pays by the pound
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
My club was pondering joining in with a group buy that another club was doing, but ended up opting for exactly what Bobby suggested. We're paying a 10% upcharge so the LHBS makes some money, we get grain for cheaper, everyone wins.
tippetsnapper
Well-Known Member
It's bigger than the just the cost of base/specialty malt. By having to buy your grain from the LHBS, you're more likely to pick up everything else you need out of convenience, whether or not the price is the best. Its the convenience factor they are playing on IMHO.
Snisup
Well-Known Member
Last week the owner of my LHBS (and several others) said that a couple of times a year they do bulk buys and take orders from customers just to help out the serious All Grain homebrewers. They offer significant discounts on sacks of grain. I have believe he said a sack of 2row is around $55 normally but you could end up getting it for $40. He even said that they would crush it for you if you brought it back in. I guess they've been doing this for a while so they've already come up with a way to compete with group buys.
It's sort of like a buy back from a good bartender. We spend tons of money on hops and specialty grains there, it's not going to kill them to give us a break every once in a while. They also get the added benefit of us being loyal to their store because they hooked us up. It's really a win/win.
jason.mundy
BIAB Purist
Great Fermentations in Indianapolis has a Grain sale each year in August. Prices of 2-row was $37 a sack. Weyerman Pilsner and Munich was $55.
Sales like this have kept me buying from the local business instead of going with the group buys.
The only draw back is that it is only once per year. You have have to estimate what grain you will use for the next 12 months.
Sales like this have kept me buying from the local business instead of going with the group buys.
The only draw back is that it is only once per year. You have have to estimate what grain you will use for the next 12 months.
Why not talk to your local brew pub or nano brewery ask them to add grain to their order? Most of the small breweries are happy to help the home brewer.
Wow! Looks like NCM/MCM has really changed their way of doing business w/ homebrewers. I've been buying malt from them for the last 5 years. Today I called as asked for their latest homebrewer price list. The person I talked to asked me for my name and e-mail which I gave her. She then stated that she'll will e-mail me the price list. My last order I placed with them was January of 2012. I didn't brew much last year just because other things got in the way. Below is the response I received from NCM/MCM today.
" Unfortunately you have to place an order within a year to keep the account active. I can suggest that you contact Brew Craft. They are a sister company of ours, and they can help you find grain and supplies in your area. Their number is 503-281-3941, or you can go online to www.brewcraftusa.com. I apologize for any inconvenience this has caused."
Unreal......
" Unfortunately you have to place an order within a year to keep the account active. I can suggest that you contact Brew Craft. They are a sister company of ours, and they can help you find grain and supplies in your area. Their number is 503-281-3941, or you can go online to www.brewcraftusa.com. I apologize for any inconvenience this has caused."
Unreal......
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CidahMastah
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Soski - stop bashing NCM. That sounds like they are just realizing a better business practice and it sounds to me like they just gave you great customer service
Honestly it looks to me that NCM is trying to set up an online retail presence.
