Ale, Lager, Lambic, Weizen... and 100% brett

[Tiroux]

Hey there!

Just for fun...

My question created some debate on a facebook group.. I was curious to see your american point of view on this.

Definitions for the types of beer can vary.. but most of the time, the definition of an Ale implies the use of Saccharomyces Cerevisea (brewer's yeasts). And the Lager definitions implies a lager strain (I won't enter the biological details, but anyway..). Lambics are.. lambics.. spontanious, various yeasts and bacterias in a mixed fermentation. Weizen implies Torulaspora.

So what is a 100% brett beer?

Ale: Nope, even if fermented at ale temps, it's not a use of brewer's yeast.
Lager: Nope
Weizen: Nope
Lambic: Nope, no bacteria, no mixed fermentation, etc...

Some call them Wild Beer.

Please let me tell you... There's nothing wild here. Brettanomyces are not more or less wild than Saccharomyces, since they are both yeasts present in nature. If you do a 100% brett beer with a nice culture, isolated by White Labs, propagated, controlled, monitored, etc... No wildness at all there.

Moreover... ''wild'' can mean sour and funky to some... even then, a 100% brett is not sour, not funky. Just darn fruity and clean.

So let's debate

 

[Teromous]

BJCP 2008 16E Belgian Specialty Ale, or 23 Specialty Beer?

 

[Tiroux]

BJCP 2008 16E Belgian Specialty Ale, or 23 Specialty Beer?

...

We are speaking of beer types, not beer styles.

 

[ffaoe]

100% Brett beers are fermented using only pure cultures of brett from whatever producers you use ie. White labs, wyeast, east coast yeast, ect.
Using one or more cultures you know exactly what is going into your beer. You know there are no souring bacteria or brewers yeast, so 100% Brett.

 

[Teromous]

...

We are speaking of beer types, not beer styles.

Aah ok, yeah you threw me a bit when you categorized a Weizen/Torulaspora as something other than an ale...

 

[Tiroux]

Aah ok, yeah you threw me a bit when you categorized a Weizen/Torulaspora as something other than an ale...

True Weizen aren't ale, because they don't use saccharomyces.

 

[Tiroux]

100% Brett beers are fermented using only pure cultures of brett from whatever producers you use ie. White labs, wyeast, east coast yeast, ect.
Using one or more cultures you know exactly what is going into your beer. You know there are no souring bacteria or brewers yeast, so 100% Brett.

The question is.. where do you categorize it/ how do you call it?
For you it's ''100% brett'' ?

 

[ffaoe]

Yes. I just call it 100% Brett

 

[Matteo57]

interesting conversation. sub'd

 

[Tiroux]

I find 100% brett pretty boring, as an appelation.

Personnaly, I call it by the name of the yeast species.

Sacch. Cereviseau is Ale
Sacch Uvarum is Lager
My 100% brett brux are Brux
My 100% brett lambics are Lambicus

 

[ffaoe]

They tend to be pretty clean when done 100%, usually just some fruity or very faint funk tones to them.

 

[Tiroux]

They tend to be pretty clean when done 100%, usually just some fruity or very faint funk tones to them.

Yes.... that's what I'm saying... and that's why it aint a ''wild beer''

 

[Teromous]

I find 100% brett pretty boring, as an appelation.

Personnaly, I call it by the name of the yeast species.

Sacch. Cereviseau is Ale
Sacch Uvarum is Lager
My 100% brett brux are Brux
My 100% brett lambics are Lambicus

Well...I'm sure the term "wild" probably has a more historical root. When your beer was infiltrated by a strain of yeast that was wasn't cultivated specifically for your beer, it was probably assumed to be a wild culture. The name just stuck. The same way you call all of your Saccharomyces cerevisiae "ales" when it is also used in making wine. Does that make wine an ale? No.

 

[ffaoe]

^ +1

 

[Tiroux]

Good point there!

 

[TNGabe]

True Weizen aren't ale, because they don't use saccharomyces.

What?

 

[Tiroux]

What?

Real weizen yeast (Weihenstephaner) is not a saccharomyces, it's a close relative, sometimes called Saccharomyces Delbrueckii, but it's Torulaspora Delbrueckii. Most of weizen yeasts today are just plain Saccharomyces cerevisea who produce lots of banane esters, that's why nowadays, weizen are just ales, and we don't really use ''weizen'' as a type along ales and lagers, but still... True weizen aren't neither ales or lagers.

 

[Majafoo]

I'm not entirely convinced that weihenstephaner is anything but saccharomyces. Do you have any legitimate sources for this? Every mount and metabolism test I've done points to saccharomyces.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Home Brew mobile app

 

[Tiroux]

I'm not entirely convinced that weihenstephaner is anything but saccharomyces. Do you have any legitimate sources for this? Every mount and metabolism test I've done points to saccharomyces.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Home Brew mobile app

Here is some informations

http://eurekabrewing.wordpress.com/2014/02/10/hello-my-name-is-torulaspora-delbrueckii/

and on Wiki, the english article doesn't speak about Torulaspora, but French and German ones do

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weizenbier

 

[Tiroux]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torulaspora_delbrueckii

 

[Teromous]

3068 Weihenstephan wheat Weihenstephan 68 (S. delbrueckii single strain)