AIPA or EIPA, a dilemma

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

Arimanari

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2022
Messages
22
Reaction score
15
Location
Greece
So here's my problem. IPA's today are, more or less, associated with the big, American hoppy citrus-orientated brew culture, that isn't something I'm very happy with. I mean, I have a slight problem with grapefruit and lemony taste in my beer - everything else is fine.
I've been trying to stick to mostly European hops since my brewing history began and avoid dry hopping with American hops, because of their citrusy profile.
The thing is, my last IPA that was, of course, an English style one with EKG/Fuggle, turned out awesome, but mostly because of the kveik/yeast I used during the hot Greek summer - 30-40 C. I didn't dry hop because of the high temperature but I really enjoyed the orange/mango taste and smell that this yeast contributed to my beer.

So my real question is: What US/American hops would you recommend that aren't too heavy on the grapefruit/lemon/grape? Any hops that I can use and get some of that sweeter mango/papaya/orange flavor? I've been reading a lot about the American hops and they all seem to be citrusy orientated, without more detailed info on what flavors are more dominant in certain situations (whether dry hopping or late addition). Cheers!
 

Group W

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2019
Messages
67
Reaction score
166
Location
Desert SW USA
Check out Yakima Valley Hops. They are a great source and have good hop descriptions. I have a similar problem and want to keep my IPAs less fruity. My go to hops on that front are Chinook and Strata.
For stone fruit & orange, check out Mosaic, El Dorado, Idaho 7 & Sabro. As mentioned, New Zealand hops may do you well. Yakima Valley has them also.

Cheers!
 

bobeer

Fermentation Specalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Messages
2,911
Reaction score
887
Location
Hamilton
centennial is straight up orange to my nose. Citra can be pretty citrusy too as the name implies but doesn't really have the other characteristics you're trying to avoid. Citra is one of those hops that you either love or really don't from my experience so maybe try to get a whiff of some before you commit to them in your beer. Loral is another good one too that is called a 'super noble' hop with citrus, tropical and floral attributes.
 

Sam_92

A whimsical brewer.
Joined
Oct 7, 2021
Messages
300
Reaction score
696
Location
Spokane
I've used Loral in a couple lagers and really liked it. +1 for Loral.
 
OP
OP
Arimanari

Arimanari

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2022
Messages
22
Reaction score
15
Location
Greece
It almost sounds to me like you want to skip right by American hops and try out New Zealand hops. They've become all the rage lately for their tropical fruit notes.
In a way, yes, probably, but those NZ ones aren't available here. I'll check for them next time I'm in Germany.
Yeah, I've been through it but it doesn't say a lot and it's often contradictive. I need real experiences, where the levels of citrus can be compared from late additions at various times to dry hopping and what flavors stand out. And more importantly - are they pleasant? For an example, the first time I used Hüll Melon I had high hopes for it but it was terrible at late addition. It might be a personal feeling but it tasted as if I've flavored my beer with shield bugs. It was ruined. Hüll Melon never again.
I've used Loral in a couple lagers and really liked it. +1 for Loral.
Loral.. it sounds interesting... My local brew guy don't have it but I might be able to get it elsewhere in tiny Europe. I love to experiment!

EDIT: I almost forgot why I did this multi-quote reply for..

I settled on trying Mosaic. It seems to be alright for what I need it to do, without screaming GRAPEFRUIT... I'm aiming for around 60IBU, combining it with Magnum for bittering. I have some Nugget leftovers that I may throw in at the beginning, as well. It's shaping as a hazy IPA of sorts.
 
Last edited:

Erik the Anglophile

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2020
Messages
980
Reaction score
1,247
Location
Pålänge, Sweden
I have read somewhere about an English Brewery making beers heavily inspired by recipes in brewing logs from now defunct British breweries.
Appearantly Fuggle, when used in "daft" amounts" as a late boil and dryhop, produces a very fruity flavour/aroma.
 

HM-2

Brewing by the seat of my pants
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jun 17, 2022
Messages
155
Reaction score
366
Location
UK
I would point you to some of the "new" British hop hybrids, if you like the more English style.

I'm a big fan of Opus/CF162 (floral, orange marmalade), CF185 (stone fruit and citrus, though you might struggle to get any as I think I just bought the last T90 available in stock in the UK...), Harlequin (passionfruit and mango). Olicana (also some citrus and tropical fruit, but with a much earthier undertone) is another one that some people love but I'm not super keen on.

They're not the same level of absolutely-punch-you-in-the-face tropical as you get from some of the New World hops, but they can straddle a really interesting line between classic British and American style fruity forward IPAs.
 
OP
OP
Arimanari

Arimanari

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2022
Messages
22
Reaction score
15
Location
Greece
I would point you to some of the "new" British hop hybrids, if you like the more English style.

I'm a big fan of Opus/CF162 (floral, orange marmalade), CF185 (stone fruit and citrus, though you might struggle to get any as I think I just bought the last T90 available in stock in the UK...), Harlequin (passionfruit and mango). Olicana (also some citrus and tropical fruit, but with a much earthier undertone) is another one that some people love but I'm not super keen on.

They're not the same level of absolutely-punch-you-in-the-face tropical as you get from some of the New World hops, but they can straddle a really interesting line between classic British and American style fruity forward IPAs.
I found a shop that sells hops from South Africa, New Zealand and Australia. I was gonna put the entire batch into a single fermenter but now I'm tempted to split the wort in 3 and experiment with these hops.
As for the hops you are referring - I don't think those are even exported outside The UK? Could be wrong.
 

mashpaddled

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2018
Messages
1,020
Reaction score
814
Location
Denver, CO
I'm unclear--you say you don't like citrus in your beer but you like orange, which is citrus as well.

A few European options for you that lean towards orange and other non-grapefruit citrus flavors:

Mandarina Bavaria--a newer German variety that tastes more tangerine IMO than orange

First Gold--an English variety with orange but not overwhelmingly fruity

Styrian Goldings--not typically thought of as a fruit-forward hop but if used in solid amounts it will showcase orange flavor

For an IPA I would only opt for Mandarina out of the three.
 

Erik the Anglophile

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2020
Messages
980
Reaction score
1,247
Location
Pålänge, Sweden
I get a slight lime feel out of the Bobek variety of Styrian Goldings. Sort of similiar to the subtle lemon thing going in Timothy Taylors ales, who I believe use that hop aswell.
Not in your face citrusy like American hops but more of a subtle "fresh" feel to it.
 
OP
OP
Arimanari

Arimanari

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2022
Messages
22
Reaction score
15
Location
Greece
I'm unclear--you say you don't like citrus in your beer but you like orange, which is citrus as well.

A few European options for you that lean towards orange and other non-grapefruit citrus flavors:

Mandarina Bavaria--a newer German variety that tastes more tangerine IMO than orange

First Gold--an English variety with orange but not overwhelmingly fruity

Styrian Goldings--not typically thought of as a fruit-forward hop but if used in solid amounts it will showcase orange flavor

For an IPA I would only opt for Mandarina out of the three.
I wouldn't mind a hint of citrus, I love putting freshly picked-from-my-garden bitter (Seville) orange peels in my wits, but that's it - a hint. I'd probably never use grapefruit or lemon/lime. Besides, the orange/mango taste I had in my last IPA came from the voss kveik, not from any hops afaik (I used Challenger for bittering and EKG+Fuggles for late additions, flameout and whirlpool - no dry hopping).
I used Mandarina Bavaria a few times in the past, it gave very strong "mandarina" taste even in small quantities, masking every other characteristic of the beer. Kinda like the Hull Melon. Very niche hops, if I think about it. Wits can benefit from them.
As I mentioned earlier, I've decided to split the wort in 3 x 8-9 gallon batches, boil them separately with different hops, perhaps dry hop one of the buckets.
I'll update when I get some free time to brew.
 
Last edited:

HM-2

Brewing by the seat of my pants
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jun 17, 2022
Messages
155
Reaction score
366
Location
UK
I used Mandarina Bavaria a few times in the pass, it gave very strong "mandarina" taste even in small quantities, masking every other characteristic of the beer.
Intreeating; I've used Mandarina a few times as well, mostly recently in 16.2% AA BBC form, and always found it to be quite mild in terms of that sweet orange or mandarin flavour, with a fair bit of woody spice.

So much so I commonly use it in things like Tripels or Saisons as the sole hop, to bring a bit more roundness to these dryer styles than traditional nobles would. Even with reasonably sized whirlpools (up to nearly 4oz) I've never had big bold mandarin out of it the same way you get, say, huge pineapple from BRU-1 or passionfruit from Strata.
 
OP
OP
Arimanari

Arimanari

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2022
Messages
22
Reaction score
15
Location
Greece
Hmm.. Belgian beers (apart from wits) have very complex fruity profiles, I see how the mandarina would work there among everything else that those yeasts are doing to the beer. Perhaps I could give it another chance on my next Saison. I still have about 10 bottles of my last one in the fridge that I brewed somewhere in April. It's gotten very delicious. I used Aurora and Styrian Cardinal - wonderful hops but sadly out of stock for months now.
 
OP
OP
Arimanari

Arimanari

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2022
Messages
22
Reaction score
15
Location
Greece
Finally I had the time to brew that IPA. It's been roughly 20 hours since I pitched the yeast and it's already blowing off. Started at15.5C (60F) and let it rise to 18-ish (64). Now steady at 18-18.5 (64-65F) with a wet cloth around it. Room temperature 17C (62-63F). Yeast is S-04. OG - 1.065.
The fermenter is 150L (39 gallons) and the beer is 29 gallons. 10 gallons of foaming delight.
004.jpg
 
OP
OP
Arimanari

Arimanari

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2022
Messages
22
Reaction score
15
Location
Greece
Magnum for bittering, mosaic for later and flameout. I had a little nugget left from my previous brew that I also threw in with the magnum. Just a tiny leftover to boost the bitterness, coming to about 55IBU.
 
OP
OP
Arimanari

Arimanari

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2022
Messages
22
Reaction score
15
Location
Greece
It's noon, the next day, and the vigorous fermentation is done. The krausen is falling back into the beer. The ferment temperatures didn't pass the 20C (68F) mark. I'll keep it at 20 for a day and let it rise a bit in the following 5-10 days. I've always had great results and fast fermentation with S-04 but I've used it primarily for Irish reds, hobgoblin ruby clone and other darker beers. First time on a lighter beer.
 
OP
OP
Arimanari

Arimanari

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2022
Messages
22
Reaction score
15
Location
Greece
Bottled this yesterday. It dropped from 15 Plato (1.0610 SG) to 3 Plato (1.0120 SG) in less than 2 days and stayed there for 2 weeks. Seemed finished to me ;)
I'll sample in couple of weeks and take pictures.
Tomorrow I'm brewing another "a little bit of this, a little bit of that" kind of IPA with equal parts wheat, pale and pils, 1-2% oats and South African hops that I'll pair with some EKG/Fuggles for more interesting (I hope) results.
 
Top