Aging of commercial beers

[Cheapo]

Hey I just had a thought; how long are the commercial beers aged? Do they go through any different processes than homebrew? Would they benefit from any extra aging in the brew cellar?

 

[GeorgiaTiger]

Thats a good question. I remember Budweiser having this big thing about "brewed on date" and saying not to drink skunky beer because it is old beer. If they aged it like we do, wouldn't they NOT put a brewed on date on there? Id like to know the answer as well!

 

[Toadsticker]

Would the real question be: Would budweiser ever Get better with age?

 

[GeorgiaTiger]

With the brewed on date, they are saying no themselves...they want you to drink it fresh.

 

[Frogmanx82]

The biggest difference with commercial brew is that most of them (and certainly all the BMC) are pasteurized which is a heating process that kills the yeast and any bacteria. So commercial beer benefits less from aging since there is no active yeast at all.

 

[45_70sharps]

A fairly plain pail ale homebrew wouldn't benefit from aging so a plain pail lager isn't going to gain anything from aging either. Pasteurizing or not.
Complex and high alcohol beers gain from aging more.

I don't know what something like Black Butte or a really hoppy IPA would do with age? I never let them sit that long.
I would think that year old hoppy commercial beer would get less hoppy? Don't know.
I don't think any of them would benefit from aging. They are designed to be what they want to present when they are on the store shelf.
They may change, but I don't know about improve.
This is a question for some of the chemists on the board. They probably understand what's going on with aging better than me.

 

[Frogmanx82]

A fairly plain pail ale homebrew wouldn't benefit from aging so a plain pail lager isn't going to gain anything from aging either. Pasteurizing or not.
Complex and high alcohol beers gain from aging more.

I don't know what something like Black Butte or a really hoppy IPA would do with age? I never let them sit that long.
I would think that year old hoppy commercial beer would get less hoppy? Don't know.
I don't think any of them would benefit from aging. They are designed to be what they want to present when they are on the store shelf.
They may change, but I don't know about improve.
This is a question for some of the chemists on the board. They probably understand what's going on with aging better than me.

Hopp character always reduces with age so if you like it hoppy, drink IPA fresh, especially for any aroma. I agree high alcohol beers tend to improve with age though I think the pasteurization process hurts them a little.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

Hey I just had a thought; how long are the commercial beers aged? Do they go through any different processes than homebrew? Would they benefit from any extra aging in the brew cellar?

Commercial beers are perfectly fermented(for the most part) with the proper amount of yeast. Most of them go from grain to glass in a couple weeks. Beers in the 5-7% range are ready to go that quickly. Some archive quality beers you may want to age for a while to let flavors develop, such as barleywines, Belgians, etc...

If they aged it like we do

Not all homebrew requires aging, just like not all beer requires aging.

The biggest difference with commercial brew is that most of them (and certainly all the BMC) are pasteurized which is a heating process that kills the yeast and any bacteria. So commercial beer benefits less from aging since there is no active yeast at all.

Most commercial beer is not pasteurized outside of BMC. Besides, the aging process really has nothing to do with yeast. A proper ferment of an average gravity beer will be done in 7-10 days. In that time, the yeast has done its job and is falling to the bottom to go to sleep. You don't need yeast at all for aging beer.

When most homebrewers talk about aging for better flavors, they are usually talking about letting yeast and fine particulates drop out, and letting off flavors mellow. You can filter or fine your beer to speed up the settling and have a proper ferment from the get go to avoid the off flavors. Sure, some styles do benefit from getting a little age on them. For sure not the hoppy styles though.

 

[Frogmanx82]

I would disagree that yeast has nothing to do with the aging process.

I read the following here http://blog.beeriety.com/2009/07/13/an-introduction-to-aging-beer/

"Similarly, beers which are not bottle conditioned and have been artificially carbonated will not age very well. The removal of the yeast from the bottle largely halts the aging process. "

I've seen that other places too. Yeast remains alive in the beer quite some time and is an active part of the aging process for stouts and other high alcohol beers that benefit from aging, much like red wine.

Here is another good link that looks at who pasteurizes and the effects on the aging of beer. http://jarticle.hubpages.com/hub/Unpasteurized_Beers

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

I would disagree that yeast has nothing to do with the aging process.

I read the following here http://blog.beeriety.com/2009/07/13/an-introduction-to-aging-beer/

"Similarly, beers which are not bottle conditioned and have been artificially carbonated will not age very well. The removal of the yeast from the bottle largely halts the aging process. "

I've seen that other places too. Yeast remains alive in the beer quite some time and is an active part of the aging process for stouts and other high alcohol beers that benefit from aging, much like red wine.

Here is another good link that looks at who pasteurizes and the effects on the aging of beer. http://jarticle.hubpages.com/hub/Unpasteurized_Beers

The first link you posted is just from some guys blog from what I can gather. I would not consider that a reputable source. I can assure you that yeast has nothing to do with the aging process. In fact, too much yeast will add off flavors when aged due to autolysis. That is why almost all commercial breweries who practice bottle conditioning will actually centrifuge and filter out all of the yeast and only add back just enough to carbonate the beer in the bottle. Don't believe me? Do some research. Send an email to Sierra Nevada, Russian River, etc... They will tell you the same. There is a subtle complexity some say from bottle conditioning, but the biggest benefit is that the yeast will take up some of the oxygen in the beer/bottle to prolong shelf life due to oxidation. They do not continue to "condition" the beer no matter how many people on HBT say they do. Unless you like autolysis and umami in your beer.

"Similarly, beers which are not bottle conditioned and have been artificially carbonated will not age very well. The removal of the yeast from the bottle largely halts the aging process. "

This is utterly and completely false. Don't believe me? Send an email to [email protected]. He wrote the book on yeast along with Chris White of White Labs.



I am not trying to go after you in particular. I am just sick of seeing this kind of homebrew dogma related over and over when it is just not true.

 

[freisste]

I received a 4-pack of something for my birthday from a major brewery and the box says it is ready to drink but ages with the best of them. (That is basically their words, but not exactly.) Are you saying that their meaning is not that I will have gains but that I will have minimal losses?

And I don't mean to be cryptic, the beer is aging in my basement and I am still in bed! Love Sundays! I'll run down there in a little bit and let you know exactly what the beer is and their exact aging words.

 

[Frogmanx82]

This is utterly and completely false. Don't believe me? Send an email to [email protected]. He wrote the book on yeast along with Chris White of White Labs.

I am not trying to go after you in particular. I am just sick of seeing this kind of homebrew dogma related over and over when it is just not true.

Ok, I'm sure I'm only repeating what I've heard. I posted some links where I got my info. It would be nice if you had a link to something Chris or Jamil had to say on the subject. The problem with the internet is research often comes up with conflicting opinions and data.

 

[freisste]

Dogfish Head Burton Baton. Hope the picture shows up well.

 

[Yooper]

I don't have much of a Beer Cellar, but I do have a couple of bottles of 2010 Bigfoot Barleywine, a Stone Vertical Epic, and a couple of others. Nothing very valuable, but things I'm happy to have. Those beers are for aging and enjoying in the future.

There are some beers, like fine wines, that should age. But for the most part, a "regular" beer is ready to go in about 2 weeks from brewdate (homebrew or commercial). A well-made beer that is not a huge big barleywine or something complex just doesn't need aging. If you don't create off flavors in the first place, they don't need to age out.

Most of my homebrews are being consumed by about day 14. But on this forum, others still have their beers in the fermenter while mine are long gone!

 

[forstmeister]

A good "general" rule to follow is that high alcohol and lower* hop character means it should age well.

This is indeed not set in stone, and some hoppy beers can be aged, but the aroma and taste will fade over time. Also, beers that are "hot" on the tongue, or have a high ABV will usually mellow a bit over time and will become more smooth.

I was talking about Burton Baton last night with a friend. Knowing DFH's usual hop schedule for IPA's, I wonder how long that beer was actually aged at the brewery. It could have been only a few weeks to impart oak character, but not long enough for the precious hops to fade.

 

[Cranny04]

Dogfish Head Burton Baton. Hope the picture shows up well.

I have two bottles of this that are a year old. I also just picked up a 4 pack that was bottled about a year after the two I already have.

I plan on doing a side by side.

I have a small wine fridge that keeps a temp of 54. I have between 15-20 bottles in there. All of them are above 8% ABV or sour.

I think a lot of high ABV commercial beer benefits from additional aging. Burton Baton has a hot alcohol thing going on when young. I think it'll age out.

From a beer advocate interview with Sam Calagione:

"BA: The label also suggests that “this beer ages with the best of ‘em,” but is “lush & enjoyable now.” Personally, we enjoyed this one fresh. However, at one of the Extreme Beer Fest pre-parties, where you showcased a hefty selection of DFH vintage beers, we gained a new appreciation for your beers, and were very impressed with how well they aged. Do you recommend aging Burton Baton? Any thoughts on how it might age?

SC: Thanks [guys], that means a lot coming from you guys. As I said the beer knowledge in your neck of the woods [Boston] is among the best in the country. Our loose rule is our beers under six are best drunk your, 6 - 8% is best within 6 months. 8 - 10% is best with-in a year or two. After that the sky is the limit. Even the Midas that was over a year old that we tried at the pre-party was tasting fantastic so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. At 10% abv, Burton is definitely a candidate for aging but I would guess that a year or two old is where it would taste best."

 

[Frogmanx82]

Part of the reason IPAs where originally hopped so much was 1 because it helped keep the beer from getting infected and 2 because the hop flavor dissipated on the long trip to India. IPAs were made to hold up to aging but have a bigger hop flavor when drunk fresh.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

There are some beers, like fine wines, that should age. But for the most part, a "regular" beer is ready to go in about 2 weeks from brewdate (homebrew or commercial). A well-made beer that is not a huge big barleywine or something complex just doesn't need aging. If you don't create off flavors in the first place, they don't need to age out.

Amen.

Ok, I'm sure I'm only repeating what I've heard. I posted some links where I got my info. It would be nice if you had a link to something Chris or Jamil had to say on the subject. The problem with the internet is research often comes up with conflicting opinions and data.

Totally understand. This is a highly debated topic with people on both sides.

Here is a good show to listen to. The bulk of the show they are talking about lager beer. If you jump in around the 30 minute mark, they start talking about aging reactions and what is happening while aging beer. John Palmer starts talking about how the aging process is really a chemical process, along with allow things to precipitate out of the beer like polyphenols. Also, there is some esterification of alcohols, formation of melanoidin compounds, and smoothing of higher alcohols.

http://s125483039.onlinehome.us/archive/bs_lagering061509.mp3


Is there a difference between a beer aged with yeast in the bottle and one without? I would imagine that there are some chemical processes going on that would make them different. Oxidation reactions would change due to the presence of yeast to take up some of the residual oxygen. I would imagine if you had two bottle of the same beer, one with yeast and one without, you would see a flavor difference. But, the statement that beer will not age without yeast is completely false.

 

[Frogmanx82]

Is there a difference between a beer aged with yeast in the bottle and one without? I would imagine that there are some chemical processes going on that would make them different. Oxidation reactions would change due to the presence of yeast to take up some of the residual oxygen. I would imagine if you had two bottle of the same beer, one with yeast and one without, you would see a flavor difference. But, the statement that beer will not age without yeast is completely false.

I certainly agree aging for high gravity beers whether they contain yeast or not will help and in fact go through several flavors some perhaps better than others. The presence of yeast would likely have some noticeable affect.

What is the thought on the pasteurization process as it relates to beer flavor and does the process affect how the beer ages?

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

What is the thought on the pasteurization process as it relates to beer flavor and does the process affect how the beer ages?

You might see a slight melanoidin formation from the flash pasteurization. Other than that, I don't think it has much of an effect. The only thing pasteurization really does is stabilize the beer to allow longer shelf life at room temp. Low ABV beer like BMC would go foul pretty quickly at room temp with any bacterial or wild yeast content, which is present in some amount on almost every beer. They do it because they have the money to do it. I would imagine more craft breweries would do it if they had to money to. Its not really any different than sulfiting a wine or a mead to stabilize it. They both age just fine.

I don't this is really an issue though, as hardly any breweries pasteurize.