Aging in Keg/Not holding pressure

[GingerFlock]

Hey all,

Brand new user here, and first time kegger. Just bought 4 *brand new* Corny kegs. They look lovely! I want to age my new beer (already racked to keg) in this to free up my secondary. I was told throw CO2 on top and purge a couple of times, keeping 15psi on top. Well, I did that, and it seems all the CO2 leaked out of the keg within 6 hours (QD were disconnected, everything sealed). I tried the penny-under-the-lid-footing trick, and that allowed me to hold pressure for ~12 hours. Finally, I gassed it up to 20psi, and that seemed to finally hold. When I say loss of pressure, I mean I pull on the lid pressure release and no gas escapes.

I've tried the StarSan/soapy water trick... if this is a leak it is too slow to perceive. Furthermore, I tried checking with some of my other kegs - they aren't holding pressures that low either (used water as a control). Is this a keg issue? Any chance the fluid is absorbing the CO2 and thats causing the "loss of pressure" I'm seeing? Should I be worried about a leak in the keg with resulting oxygenation of the beer, or am I being paranoid?

Lastly, what is the result of aging a beer that has been force-carbonated? I have a Honey-Ginger Imperial Rye IPA that needs about a year to come to fruition I believe, so I don't want to carbonate the hell out of this and ruin the batch. Thanks so much you guys!

 

[The_Doctor]

Did you just spray star san around the main gasket? Try spraying the pressure relief, gas post and poppet as well. I also suggest silicone keg lube for all the seals.

 

[Pratzie]

If they are ball locks, check the relief valve. Two of mine needed to be replaced. Also are u using keg lube?

 

[DirtyOldDuck]

If my kegs are not going directly into the beer fridge, which is rare, I always seal the lids with 30 psi. While it should hold at 15 psi, it is not uncommon to have to first seal the lid at a higher pressure and then turn it down when you put it in the fridge. 30 psi at room temp just long enough to seal the lid won't harm your beer at all.

 

[mikescooling]

Your gas went into the beer. If you burst (force carb) by cooling the keg then jack the in-coming pressure up to 30, then flip the keg on it's side and roll back and forth with your foot. You'll hear it taking gas for like 5 min and that's not fully carbed . That un-carbed beer can hold a a lot of gas! Or you have a leak.

 

[zachattack]

It's common for the lids to not seal at lower pressures. Oversized gaskets, keg lube, and the old penny-under-the-feet trick can all help, but it's fine to hit it with 30+ PSI initially to seat the seal.

 

[JDGator]

Your gas went into the beer. If you burst (force carb) by cooling the keg then jack the in-coming pressure up to 30, then flip the keg on it's side and roll back and forth with your foot. You'll hear it taking gas for like 5 min and that's not fully carbed . That un-carbed beer can hold a a lot of gas! Or you have a leak.

this is what i'm thinking too!!

 

[kombat]

You don't need to pressurize your beer to age it. Just flush out oxygen with a couple shots of CO2 and purging, and it will be fine. If you try and pressurize it, as you've noticed, the beer will absorb most of it (until the pressure equalizes). You can age your beer at standard pressure, just keep it away from oxygen.

When you DO pressurize it, however, absolutely make sure you use keg lube. I wasted so much CO2 before I discovered keg lube.

 

[GingerFlock]

Thanks for the feedback! I sprayed starsan on everything, even the gas and beer poppets... No noticeable leak. I'm assuming its absorbed CO2 then.

For keg lube, would you recommend racking the beer to another keg prior to applying it to the o-rings? Or could I remove the lid, cover with some foil, and apply the lube? Lastly, lube on just the lid ring or on all the poppet rings as well?

 

[zachattack]

Just the lid ring is fine for now, it's also a good idea to keep the post o-rings lubed as well. It'll take you 10 seconds to get it on there, just yank the lid off, lube up the o-ring, put the lid back on. No need to cover with foil or anything.

 

[kombat]

No need to rack. I apply the lube to all O-rings and poppets (I use Q-tips to apply it), although I only do it when I break the keg down for a thorough cleaning. In-between thorough cleanings (I use a keg 2-3 times before a full breakdown cleaning), I only lube the large O-ring on the lid.

 

[GingerFlock]

I'll go grab some lube and pleasure the keg tonite.

Kombat, as far as a thorough cleaning goes, what do you do? Replace o-rings? Or just disassemble, check the parts, lube it up and re-assemble?

 

[RmikeVT]

Beer is def absorbing CO2 -- my 2 cents.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

I think it's likely a combination of the issues noted here. 15psi is holding the seal on the lid fine, but the beer is absorbing the CO2, which will eventually drop the relative pressure in the head space. When the pressure drops enough, you lose the tight seal on the lid, and whatever remaining CO2 was in the head space leaks out, resulting in no 'pfffft' when you pull the pressure relief valve. This will likely continue to happen, no matter how tight your lid is or how lubed your O-Ring is, as the kegs are really only designed to seal under pressure, and you're not keeping them under pressure.

Either keep the CO2 hooked up, or (and I'd go with this one) don't worry about it for aging. The seal is plenty strong enough to keep out things you don't want in your beer and as long as you purge the head-space and get out most of the oxygen, you'll be fine.

-Kevin

 

[GingerFlock]

BadNewsBrewery - that's what I'm thinking, but just worried about. I know CO2 is technically heavier that O2, but if the seal isn't perfect, you think I don't need to worry about O2 leaking back in? I guess - if all else fails - we'll know in 6 months to a year. An expensive experiment, but I'll keep y'all posted.

 

[DirtyOldDuck]

If it was simply the beer absorbing the CO2, wouldn't it just equalize with the pressure in the headspace, with some gas still be some remaining? OP describes it as pulling the pressure relief and no gas escaping. In my opinion, the beer didn't just suck up the CO2, the lid wasn't sealed.

 

[GingerFlock]

That's the thought that crossed my mind, but I don't know the capacity of beer for dissolved CO2. If CO2 is absorbed into the liquid, in essence the partial pressure should decrease (unless oxygen is displaced back up into the headspace). I'm unsure if the beer can absorb so much that, in essence, it eliminates all pressure.

 

[kombat]

Kombat, as far as a thorough cleaning goes, what do you do? Replace o-rings? Or just disassemble, check the parts, lube it up and re-assemble?

Completely disassemble, wash and scrub everything with hot PBW, rinse thoroughly, sanitize with StarSan, reassemble (replacing O-rings where necessary), lube with keg lube, and pressurize.

I used to do that EVERY time a keg emptied, but it's quite time-consuming, so on the advice of others here, I've moved to only doing the complete teardown every 2 or 3 batches. For a "quick" cleaning, I just pour in some hot water, swish it around, and dump, 2-3 times. Then I pour in a couple quarts of Star-San, seal it, shake it well, pressurize with CO2, hook up a picnic tap and run some through it (to get StarSan inside the liquid pickup tube).

In a complete cleaning, I remove the keg posts, dip tubes, poppets, everything. I scrub the small pieces with an old toothbrush. I have a tube cleaning brush for cleaning inside the dip tubes. I keep them stored with a couple quarts of StarSan inside, and pressurized, so when I need the keg, I just shake it up a little bit, pull the PRV to vent, open the lid, dump the Star-San, purge with a little more CO2, and fill with beer.

 

[kombat]

I'm currently aging some Oktoberfest in a pair of Corny kegs, and I didn't bother to pressurize it at all. After I racked the beer into the keg, I connected my CO2 tank and purged any Oxygen, but then I just removed the gas post completely and covered it with foil. This allows any subsequent CO2 released to escape (so no keg explosions) while keeping out anything nasty.

I constructed a "clever" system to allow it to vent CO2 in a more secure way (basically a gas disconnect on silicone tubing, with the other end of the tubing simply draped into a pail of sanitizer - basically a blowoff tube for kegs), but I experienced significant suckback and now have a quart of StarSan in my Oktoberfest, so I don't use that anymore. I suppose if the beer were already chilled, it would be minimal risk, but I'm gun-shy now.

 

[mikescooling]

We'er talking about aging a keg that is at FG, is their any reason not to carb the keg up for two weeks and let it sit like that for the next year?

 

[JDGator]

I'm currently aging some Oktoberfest in a pair of Corny kegs, and I didn't bother to pressurize it at all. After I racked the beer into the keg, I connected my CO2 tank and purged any Oxygen, but then I just removed the gas post completely and covered it with foil. This allows any subsequent CO2 released to escape (so no keg explosions) while keeping out anything nasty.

I constructed a "clever" system to allow it to vent CO2 in a more secure way (basically a gas disconnect on silicone tubing, with the other end of the tubing simply draped into a pail of sanitizer - basically a blowoff tube for kegs), but I experienced significant suckback and now have a quart of StarSan in my Oktoberfest, so I don't use that anymore. I suppose if the beer were already chilled, it would be minimal risk, but I'm gun-shy now.

you won't blow a keg because it has a relief valve.

 

[BBBF]

We'er talking about aging a keg that is at FG, is their any reason not to carb the keg up for two weeks and let it sit like that for the next year?

No problem for beer. However, I want to store wine and mead in kegs, which I don't want to be carbonated. At some point, I plan on getting a nitrogen or argon tank.

 

[zachattack]

you won't blow a keg because it has a relief valve.

I was gonna say the same thing.

 

[GingerFlock]

No problem for beer. However, I want to store wine and mead in kegs, which I don't want to be carbonated. At some point, I plan on getting a nitrogen or argon tank.

The keg and tank are both in my kegerator, chilled. Should I go ahead and throw 30psi on it - in the fridge - for two days then remove the QD? Or should I take it out of the fridge and do the same thing? Hopefully with the carbonation, I'll stop losing CO2 to the beer and it'll hold.

 

[GingerFlock]

In a complete cleaning, I remove the keg posts, dip tubes, poppets, everything. I scrub the small pieces with an old toothbrush. I have a tube cleaning brush for cleaning inside the dip tubes. I keep them stored with a couple quarts of StarSan inside, and pressurized, so when I need the keg, I just shake it up a little bit, pull the PRV to vent, open the lid, dump the Star-San, purge with a little more CO2, and fill with beer.

Why store it under pressure? What's the science behind pressurizing for storage?

 

[kombat]

Why store it under pressure? What's the science behind pressurizing for storage?

The low-oxygen environment makes it inhospitable for microbes, but it also helps detect leaky kegs.

For example, if I store my kegs sanitized, with 10 psi of pressure, then when kegging day comes along, if I pull the relief valve and get nothing, I know the keg is probably leaky and can either take extra precautions (replace O-rings, apply keg lube) or reach for another keg instead.

 

[Jacktar]

Put balloons on your posts. If they inflate, you have a leaky post. Poppets can often be the problem.

 

[GingerFlock]

Put balloons on your posts. If they inflate, you have a leaky post. Poppets can often be the problem.

Hmmm... ever tried a really large balloon to place over the entire top (i.e., encircle the poppets and lid)?

 

[mikescooling]

My kegs are old and I think some of them have the wrong poppets so I check them all the time. Some times the O-rings can get smushed funny. If you pressure up an empty keg it should hold pressure, give that a try as a test for leaks.

 

[GingerFlock]

My kegs are old and I think some of them have the wrong poppets so I check them all the time. Some times the O-rings can get smushed funny. If you pressure up an empty keg it should hold pressure, give that a try as a test for leaks.

Currently experimenting with water-filled kegs, but with all the talk of dissolved CO2, I'll give the empty keg a shot!

 

[BBBF]

Why store it under pressure? What's the science behind pressurizing for storage?

The pressure in the keg is really what seals the lids, not the o-ring and lever. Changes in temperature can cause the liquid to expand and contract, which could suck in air.

Some levers might be tight enough to work or you could try putting a coin under the feet for a little more leverage or you can get the thicker gaskets. YMMV.

 

[BBBF]

Currently experimenting with water-filled kegs, but with all the talk of dissolved CO2, I'll give the empty keg a shot!

You can always pressurize with an air compresser and save the co2.

 

[GingerFlock]

I guess these are the options I'm now considering (input is appreciated):

1) Do nothing - hope that what I'm seeing is absorbed CO2 and age the beer as is (runs risk that if it is a leak, beer oxidizes).

2) Go ahead and fully carb. If its absorbed CO2, then I should see the seal form and hold. If its a leak, I'll have an empty CO2 cannister tomorrow.

3) Some other alternative...

Thoughts?

 

[BBBF]

You can test one of the empty kegs. Prove that it holds presssure, without having to factor in disolving co2. Rack to proven keg. Test original/currently empty keg for next time.

 

[GingerFlock]

I'll give that a shot. As far as all this testing goes... should I do it in the fridge? Or at RT? Right now in Houston, TX its a niiiice cool 74F in the house.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Regarding your 3 options - go with Option 1, which is basically RDWHAHB. Your beer will be fine. People have made beer for centuries, no kegs, no CO2, no StarSan... Your beer wants to be delicious beer and you WILL succeed.

Testing - if you're just testing for leaks with an empty keg, do it at room temperature. It doesn't really matter, but you'll use less CO2 at room temp (ideal gas law and everything). I'd say more important is to have it at a constant temperature so you don't have to worry about pressure changes in the keg.

 

[Jacktar]

Hmmm... ever tried a really large balloon to place over the entire top (i.e., encircle the poppets and lid)?

Sounds like fun but hard to isolate the problem.

 

[GingerFlock]

Regarding your 3 options - go with Option 1, which is basically RDWHAHB. Your beer will be fine. People have made beer for centuries, no kegs, no CO2, no StarSan... Your beer wants to be delicious beer and you WILL succeed.

Haha I tend to worry too much, you're right; I'll just let it age for a few months and enjoy.

For the sake of science (and hopefully to answer future questions), I'm gonna lay my protocol and logic behind this. In the future when I taste, I'll try and remember to post here again to inform the community if my method worked or not.

Beer: IRATE SHEEP v2.0
Style: Honey-Ginger-Rye Imperial IPA
IBUs: 122
ABV: 12.3%
Protocol: Beer was racked to keg (did not purge beforehand). After 4d of messing with pressure not holding, I opted for the "hit and forget" method. Fridge is reading 44F. Per style, I chose to carbonate to ~2.3-2.5. Consulting http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php I set my regulator to 12psi. Will keep this in the fridge, hooked to constant CO2 for 2 weeks, then remove the QD and check for pressure retention 1wk s/p carbonation.
Logic: This is a heavy beer, that is going to need a lot of time to mature. As OP, my original issue was pressure retention. My logic behind carb'ing and THEN aging (as found on other posts) is mainly a means of addressing my pressure issue. My argument for my carb'ing prior to aging is not detrimental is b/c natural carbonation in the olden days would mean that beers were aging on CO2. If they could do it, why can't we? We'll see how it goes.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

So hopefully this sets your mind at ease - I have 3 kegs, but only 2 taps, so I use a party tap on the third - it's my apfelwein, which doesn't get the same consumption rate as the beers. I also only have 2 CO2 lines. I haven't had CO2 on the apfelwein keg for about 3 weeks, but also haven't drank any. Yesterday I popped a CO2 line over to it, at the same pressure on the regulator as before, and heard no CO2 flow. What this tells me is that the keg held pressure for 3 weeks no problem, and that because the apfelwein was already carbonated, there was no CO2 "loss" to the liquid due to absorption.

So as long as your keg isn't leaky, you should get the same results.

 

[GingerFlock]

Seems the keg's holding now - I think its safe to assume that CO2 was dissolving into the beer.