Aging/Conditioning

[esclavosoy]

I've been following the 1-2-3 rule and I have my doubts about it. I've made 3 batches and by the time they get carbonated they still seem like they are on the green side. I've looked at DonO's beer log and he seems to have them in primary for 2 weeks and 2 months in secondary then kegs.

I just got a NB catalog and it said you can drink your brew after a couple days after being kegged. If I did leg after 1-2-3 wouldn't my brew taste just as green as my brews are tasting now? Is this 1-2-3 rule just a minimum or what would provide tastier brews?

TIA

Gabriel

 

[IL1kebeer]

I've been following the 1-2-3 rule and I have my doubts about it. I've made 3 batches and by the time they get carbonated they still seem like they are on the green side. I've looked at DonO's beer log and he seems to have them in primary for 2 weeks and 2 months in secondary then kegs. I just got a NB catalog and it said you can drink your brew after a couple days after being kegged. If I did leg after 1-2-3 wouldn't my brew taste just as green as my brews are tasting now? Is this 1-2-3 rule just a minimum or what would provide tastier brews? TIA Gabriel

If you pitch the right amount of healthy yeast, control your fermentation temps, aerate/oxygenate properly, and brew the correct style then you can go grain to glass in less than three weeks when kegging.

1-2-3 works well with unhealthy fermentations as it gives the yeast more time to clean up all of the crap they created while stressed. And even then if the fermentation was really poor they won't be able to clean up everything which will lead to lingering off flavors. Also transferring to a secondary might actually retard this process so it would be better to do 3-3 in this case.

Bottom line. Dial in your fermentation and you can enjoy your beers faster without having off flavors. My American wheat will be done fermenting tomorrow and I brewed it three days ago. I'll give it 3 more days from tomorrow and will keg after only 1 week. Obviously some styles are better suited to be aged but pale beers can be enjoyed relatively fresh (although a period of cold conditioning will certainly benefit all beers).

 

[esclavosoy]

I've been using dried yeast with no starter, I'm guessing that's the problem? I already ferment in a temp controlled fridge at about 62F.

My 4th batch witch is in the fermentor right now has some Wyeast. I had a blow off so I'm guessing the yeast was healthy?

I've always aerated by shaking up the carboy before and after pitching yeast.

What you guys think?

 

[laughingboysbrew]

+1 IL1kebeer. O2 + healthy yeast + temp control is the key to fermentation. Also consider that fermentation is exothermic. Ambient temperature won't be the same as actual liquid temperature. 62 is sort of on the lower end. Is that ambient temp? I would invest in a hydrometer too. Take (clean) gravity readings a long the way. When you hit a point where gravity doesn't change any more (final gravity), wait 1-2 days then, bottle/keg. After primary, I can usually drink a glass out of the fermenter. It should be good...just a little under-carb'd. Depending on how you carbonate in keg, you should be able to drink the beer within days of racking.

 

[Odin_Brews]

You don't need a starter with dry yeast, but rehydrating might be good. and a big +1 to maybe going to 3-3 skip the secondary unless you're sure it's time to transfer.

What kind of beers are you brewing? Different beers have different time lines and if you're reading about recipes with 2 month secondaries then those are special cases where the 1-2-3 doesn't apply.

 

[C-Rider]

Try 3-3 rule
3 weeks in fementer
3 weeks in bottles
No need secondary unless adding something like fruit.
If can stick a few days of cold crashing between the two 3's to really clear your beer.

 

[esclavosoy]

So far I've done:

NB Irish Red, NB White House Honey Ale and a MWS Pumpkin Ale. Currently there's a Chinook IPA in the fermentor.

The Irish Red and White House Ale I did 1-2-3 and the Pumpkin ale I did 2-3-3. After a week of bottle carbonating the pumpkin ale still tasted a bit green. Still drinkable but nothing I'd be proud of. Now after 3 weeks it tastes about 95% of where it should taste.

I do have a hydrometer and a refractometer but I only take reading before placing carboy in fermentor and before bottling.

I've also noticed that beer from 12oz bottles and 22oz bottles taste different. Brew in 12oz seem to finish agin?... Sooner than brews in 22oz. Can you guys explain that?

BTW thanks for all your quick response.

 

[unionrdr]

The larger bottles will take longer to carb & condition due to larger volume.

 

[grimzella]

I was impatient at one point in my brew hobby. off flavors were the result. I then left beer in primary 4weeks, used pure O2 (very good idea to improve flavor) with a custom insulated chest for temp control.. that along with a steady mash temp & ph levels around 5.. my beers are much better now. my bottles finish up and taste a lot better, quicker.

 

[seefish]

+1 to re-hydrating the dry yeast and +1 to avoiding secondary unless you are adding something post fermentation or aging.

I confess to using rules of thumb sometimes on session beers, but I would really suggest shying away from them. Let the beer tell you when its ready. Check gravity and taste. Depending on style or situation the beer may be done after 3 days or 3 weeks or 3 months or maybe you get a stuck fermentation.

 

[causeimthesquid]

The larger bottles will take longer to carb & condition due to larger volume.

Why should volume make an impact? The priming sugars are still at the same ratio and the yeast population is the same. The same amount of yeast should be able to consume the same amount of sugar (to a point) regardless of what size vessel they are in, no?

 

[cclloyd]

Keep in mind also that when you bottle condition some of that "green" flavor is due the added sugars restarting the fermentation in the bottle. If you keg without priming sugar then you don't get this flavor. I have also noticed that while the beer is carbed somewhat and drinkable after a week on gas, it is generally much better after two weeks on gas. You can speed the process up by using higher pressure but even so I have found that two weeks at serving pressure gives the result I am after.

 

[grimzella]

Keep in mind also that when you bottle condition some of that "green" flavor is due the added sugars restarting the fermentation in the bottle. If you keg without priming sugar then you don't get this flavor. I have also noticed that while the beer is carbed somewhat and drinkable after a week on gas, it is generally much better after two weeks on gas. You can speed the process up by using higher pressure but even so I have found that two weeks at serving pressure gives the result I am after.

and this is why the important pipeline must be kept going at all times ... a good one to four months (depending on style) is what it takes for the "green" to go away.. then about a week in the fridge (again, thanks to the pipeline I have time for this) for things to drop & settle. I get out the 'ol Chimay goblet and pour till sediment gets close and stop... altho with Chimay blue.. I swirl and pour the yeast sediment in as well. yummy!

 

[esclavosoy]

Will skipping secondary improve the taste or will it just save time?

Wow I'm really digging legging now.

 

[causeimthesquid]

Will skipping secondary improve the taste or will it just save time?

Wow I'm really digging legging now.

Depends what type of beer it is. If its an Imperial Stout, yeah, getting it off the yeast after a few weeks to let it age a couple months is a good idea.

I rarely do secondary fermentation anymore. Its just another chance for oxidation and infection. Plus, the yeast help clean up off-flavors.

The secondary advice is mostly outdated from when suspect yeast cultures were available for homebrewers. With the quality of yeast today, its hardly necessary.

 

[esclavosoy]

If I'm making an IPA or Pale ale don't I get off flavor from beer being on yest cake for too long?

From your response I'm guessing skipping secondary improves taste?

 

[eltorrente]

If I'm making an IPA or Pale ale don't I get off flavor from beer being on yest cake for too long?

From your response I'm guessing skipping secondary improves taste?

Basically, as long as you leave it in the primary for up to 4-8 weeks, you will get more benefit from leaving it alone. If you are going to do a RIS or some "big" beer, then you may end up bulk aging it in a secondary, after a month or two in the primary.

It's best to leave it alone and let the yeast do it's thing in the primary. In those times you want to age a big beer, then you can go into a secondary or simply bottle and age in bottles after a month or two in the primary.

 

[esclavosoy]

I remember reading that you get off flavors if you leave the beer in primary for more than 3 weeks. Is that incorrect?

 

[Odin_Brews]

I don't know about the pumpkin ale but the other beers you've made should be pretty good after 3 and 3 or 1-2-3, whatever.

You're right that you've probably read somewhere about getting it off the yeast cake to avoid off flavors but most people don't bother unless it's going to sit for a long time. There's heaps of threads about primary vs. secondary, in the end it's up to you. Personally I transferred a few, half batch to secondary and left half on the yeast, in the end I couldn't tell the difference so now I don't secondary for 95% of my beers.

 

[unionrdr]

Why should volume make an impact? The priming sugars are still at the same ratio and the yeast population is the same. The same amount of yeast should be able to consume the same amount of sugar (to a point) regardless of what size vessel they are in, no?

I've read threads where other's,even notables on this sight,have noticed that larger volume bottles take a bit longer to carb & condition from sheer volume.
More beer takes more time,regardless of priming it seels. I just use 12oz'rs myself. It's not a lot of extra time,just a matter of days to a week.

 

[causeimthesquid]

I remember reading that you get off flavors if you leave the beer in primary for more than 3 weeks. Is that incorrect?

That is a carry-over from commercial brewing information. Commercial brewers use connicals, so they have a thick yeast cake. When homebrewers use carboys or buckets, they have a thin and wide yeast cake. There is also much less beer above the yeast cake. The pressures in a connical with a thick yeast cake can result in rupturing of weak/dead yeast cells (accentuated by unhealthy yeast).

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah,autolysis is more common in the large commercial conicals with all that weight of beer on the settled yeast/trub. Not so on our small scale.

 

[laughingboysbrew]

Why should volume make an impact? The priming sugars are still at the same ratio and the yeast population is the same. The same amount of yeast should be able to consume the same amount of sugar (to a point) regardless of what size vessel they are in, no?

Carbonation is a function of headspace pressure and temperature over a period of time. Larger volume of liquid and smaller headspace would mean more headspace pressure...thus 'faster 'carbonation for the same period of time. Take for example a cask, I can condition (carbonate) 5gals in a cask in about 5-7 days...where as in bottles would take weeks.

Not sure why a 12oz would taste better...maybe it's a clarity thing...and you still have residual yeast in your 22oz (more liquid to fall through?)