After Careful Consideration: My Recipe

[jalgayer]

Well,

Between posting and reading here, other forums, and books... I have come up with the following plan for my sour. I hope to get some feedback and advice to shore this up. Thank you all for your input (past and present)

MASH THE FOLLOWING AT 155F for 90min
1.75# Munich
1.75# Vienna
8oz Aromatic
6oz Caramunich
4oz Special B

BRING TO BOIL AND ADD
2# Wheat DME
1# Light DME
1oz Fuggles (15IBU)

COOL TO 68F AND ADD
Wyeast Rosealare Blend into a 6.5 Gallon Bucket with an airlock

FERMENT IN BUCKET
3-4 weeks

RACK TO 5GAL BETTER BOTTLE
With little head-space and an airlock

FORGET ABOUT IT
In the basement in the mid to high 60's for a year

ADD 1oz OAK CHIPS
To the better bottle for 1 more month

BOTTLE
With a little extra yeast

STATS

Predicted SG: 1.049
Predicted FG: 1.002
Predicted ABV: 6.1%
SRM: 13

FINAL NOTES
The timelines are approximations.
The predictions are just that


Thanks for any thoughts on any of the above... I am pretty excited.

 

[maskednegator]

I think a 90 minute mash is excessive, but everything else looks fine.

 

[Oldsock]

I think a 90 minute mash is excessive, but everything else looks fine.

Might be, but with Munich and Vienna as the base malt it isn't bad insurance.

Looks good to me, although I'd toss in some bottle dregs for added complexity/sourness in primary or secondary.

I'd also add the oak earlier on (going into secondary), I find the longer I leave beers on wood the more complexity and the less lumber I get. I steam or boil the oak (I like cubes) for a few minutes first to knock out some of that fresh wood character as well.

Good luck!

 

[jalgayer]

Thanks.

I was going with the 90min for just that reason. This is a 12-18 month process. What not make it 18 months and 30 minutes for safe measure!

A few questions:

[1] If I add the oak CHIPS (does it not being cubes make a differnce?) to secondary - how long after I rack to secondary should I add them. I was going with 1 month so that it wasnt 'too much' oak flavor.

[2] How many dregs of bottles and when?

[3] Am I ok with an air lock and not an oak dowel?

I am super pumped. If I am going to invest 12-18 months I want to be sure that I am dotting the i's and crossing the t's

Thanks for the answers to these 3 questions.... and any other tips. This is such an underdeveloped area I am so happy that I am able to get any help let alone the caliber of help I am getting.

PUMPED!

 

[jessup]

1. oak chips will probably add more oaky flavor due to more surface area. the cubes have varied char and would add more complexity since the chips are more homogeneous with their char level. i would wait maybe 6 months too add oak, but that is a variable you might wanna play with.
2. my fav dregs to use are jolly pumpkin and Fantome. they usually have the best success rate, but lindemans cuvee rene is also a good choice. use whatever you can find besides your pastuerized sours like rodenbach, new belgium, etc.
3. i always use an airlock and have never had any problems. some people have had problems with the oak dowel if not used with a bung - the wood can swell and crack/break the glass carboy. if using a better bottle i guess this wouldn't be a problem.

*other notes, you should slowly raise the temp in the mash to release extra tannins that will act as food later on for the various buggies in roselare blend, or do a decoction of sorts and add boiling water later to jack up the temp. maltodextrin is also a good contribution per most of the success stories around these parts.

 

[Oldsock]

The higher surface area of chips means that they will release their flavor quicker, as a result it can be harder to pull them at the right time. I’d rather control the oakiness with amount than time, if you are concerned with over-oaking, use .5 oz (you can always add more oak if it needs it later). I'll agree with Jessup that the cubes also tend to be higher quality.

1-2 bottles of dregs in fine, the earlier you add them the more impact they'll have (I like to toss them in at the start or in the first few days to give them access to some simple sugars). Here is a listing I've been working on for beers with viable dregs: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/06/harvesting-sour-beer-bottle-dregs.html (happy to take any suggestions if anyone has them).

Jessup – I’ve never heard the claim that the tannins serve as nutrients for the bugs, got a reference?

 

[jessup]

Jessup – I’ve never heard the claim that the tannins serve as nutrients for the bugs, got a reference?

sorry that was worded badly, it's not necessarily the tannins you're looking for, but according to many things i've read the high heat of a turbid mash is beneficial. here's something in black and white to use as a reference:

http://bergsman.org/jeremy/lambic/making.html
"The sparging of a lambic mash is typically carried out with water that is hotter than 165°F, usually closer to 190°F. This aids in extracting dextrins and unconverted starches from the mash. This procedure also extracts tannins from the malt as well, but these are precipitated out over the long fermentation cycle and do not contribute to astringency in any large part. The use of hotter-than-normal sparge water is particularly important if one follows a true turbid mash type schedule due to the poor conversion. In normal beer production one does not want all of these various components extracted into the wort but in lambic brewing they are needed to support the long fermentation process and will ultimately be utilized by the yeast and bacteria. Without these usually undesirable products the lambic organisms will not thrive and produce an optimal product."

 

[Oldsock]

] here's something in black and white to use as a reference:

Agreed with that quote, the way I understand it the tannins are incidental to the process. Just wanted to make sure you hadn’t read something I had missed.

 

[jessup]

and after a quick google i see that you've already gone in that direction:
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2009/08/lambic-3-turbid-mash.html

 

[Oldsock]

and after a quick google i see that you've already gone in that direction:
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2009/08/lambic-3-turbid-mash.html

Can't wait to try it in August when I’m up in Massachusetts. Lambic/gueuze is the one sour style that continues to elude me. Not sure if the issue is that I’m trying to be too traditional (weird mashes, aging in primary etc…) or not traditional enough (no aged hops, not spontansous, not barrel aged etc…). Hopefully this one is better than the last two.

 

[jessup]

Not sure if the issue is that I’m trying to be too traditional (weird mashes, aging in primary etc&#8230 or not traditional enough (no aged hops, not spontansous, not barrel aged etc&#8230.

hmmm now that comment perplexes me. i've never done a full on traditional lambic. i guess there's a fine line between the two, but i'm sure you can ride the middle to utilize the useful complicated and traditional methods while still using the conveniences of today. since i'm a traditionalist i would like to do everything as it once was, but you have to make tradeoffs in your hobbies somewhere or another. there are just so many options and so many roads to go down for a sour:

maltodextrin V turbid mash
oak chips, cubes, spirals V barrel (flavor)
oak dowel/peg V barrel (permeability)
spontaneous V pitch WY/WL - btw when is east coast yeast distributing? i've never tried AlB's yeast and he only lives like 15 from where i am.
fruit extract or syrup V fresh fruit
GMO fruit V natural fruit <----now there's something new to think about in the future!!
aged V normal hops
pellet V whole leaf
60 min boil V 5 hour boil
barrel size* - more or less goes back to permeability
stainless steel V glass V barrel V better bottle
when to rack out of primary?
**and the big one - when to drink??

Can't wait to try it in August when I&#8217;m up in Massachusetts.

i'm only 5 min from NJ exit 9 on I95 so feel free to stop by on your way to Mass and try a beer or two.

 

[Oldsock]

i'm only 5 min from NJ exit 9 on I95 so feel free to stop by on your way to Mass and try a beer or two.

I'm dropping my girlfriend off at Tufts in August, I may just take you up on that offer on the way back down. Not sure when Al is going to get up and going, he had invested in some conicals last I heard (his Bug Farm #3 is doing good work for me at the moment.)

P.S.Don't forget Flaked vs Raw vs Malted wheat

 

[jalgayer]

Hope some of you are still reading this. I am still researching, taking notes and studying for making this.

A few more questions:

[1] Should I do any kind of starter - if so, how big?

[2] Should I use maltodextrine and any point in the starter or the beer?

[3] I have heard of people "feeding" the sour by adding stuff a few months down the road... then again another few months as well.... thoughts?

Thanks guys... as you can see I am in no big rush..I have been looking into this for weeks. (which I know is STILL not that long... but I am not just jumping it.)

Looking forward to replies.

 

[jessup]

roselare is funny with the starter. since it's a blend of regular yeast and bugs a starter will help the sacch proliferate while there will only be a small population of the wild things until farther down the road. typically an all brett beer needs about a 4L starter, but since this is not an all brett beer i'm not sure what to tell you. i would say pitch two roselare packets and not do a yeast starter, but that's me and i'm lazy:cross:

i would use maltodextrine if you're not doing the turbid mash as we discussed in the previous posts. i would definitely feed the beer as time goes on, whether with fruit, wort or more maltodextrine.

and oldsock - i was reading a small section on fruit in Wild Brews last night and Sparrow does go on about how beneficial tannins are to the beer, but he was speaking specifically about the tannins found in fruits. so to re-iterate, tannins are important from fruit, but not necessarily from the grains. a technicality i suppose, but either way tannins are in fact beneficial

 

[FromZwolle]

planning a similar project, and had another question to tack on. would it be better to stop the mash/sparge as soon as conversion is complete to keep the enzymes from creating an overly fermentable wort? that would leave more for the 'bugs' to get at once the yeast quits.

 

[Oldsock]

and oldsock - i was reading a small section on fruit in Wild Brews last night and Sparrow does go on about how beneficial tannins are to the beer, but he was speaking specifically about the tannins found in fruits. so to re-iterate, tannins are important from fruit, but not necessarily from the grains. a technicality i suppose, but either way tannins are in fact beneficial

I don't have my copy on me, but was he talking about the flavor of the beer or the fermentation. Tannins certainly do make a positive impact in the flavor of a fruit beer, it was the suggestion that they are a bug nutrient that I didn't remember.

 

[jessup]

Jalgayer: sorry for the official thread hijack

Sparrow Wild Brews page 130:
"Choosing the proper type of fruit is important. Four factors to consider when choosing fruit include sugar content, acidity, the type of acid, and the level of tannins in the fruit...Tannins can be pleasant in wild beer. As tannins increase, so does the perceived dryness of the beer."

When tannins are high the brew finishes dry so the bugs must be eating more to give the low SG and dryness. imo i can definitely see fruit being a catalyst for complex flavor production over long periods and a great way to make a good sour better.

 

[Oldsock]

Sparrow Wild Brews page 130:
"Choosing the proper type of fruit is important. Four factors to consider when choosing fruit include sugar content, acidity, the type of acid, and the level of tannins in the fruit...Tannins can be pleasant in wild beer. As tannins increase, so does the perceived dryness of the beer."

When tannins are high the brew finishes dry so the bugs must be eating more to give the low SG and dryness. imo i can definitely see fruit being a catalyst for complex flavor production over long periods and a great way to make a good sour better.

Tannins themselves make a beer taste drier. For example adding oak to a sweet beer will make it seem drier because of the added tannins even though the FG doesn't change. I believe that is all the author is trying to convey, not that they actually cause the bugs to eat more (the wording could certainly be cleaned up a bit).

Agreed that the fermentation of the sugars from the fruit will help to spur changes in the beer, especially if you wait until the bugs are established before adding them.

 

[phasedweasel]

As tannins increase, so does the perceived dryness of the beer."

When tannins are high the brew finishes dry so the bugs must be eating more to give the low SG and dryness.

The tannins only make it taste drier than a beer with that FG would have, they do not actually lower the FG.

 

[jalgayer]

Ok,
So I just tasted it at about the 3 month mark... AND it has a little sourness and a light pellicle. Just not sure if I should add more of anything to get it more sour?