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BrewnWKopperKat

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@ncbrewer : do you brew with just Williams extracts (or with multiple brands)? If you brew with multiple brands, do you use the same CaCl/gypsum additions for all the brands? Or do you find the additions to be brand specific?
 

ncbrewer

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@ncbrewer : do you brew with just Williams extracts (or with multiple brands)? If you brew with multiple brands, do you use the same CaCl/gypsum additions for all the brands? Or do you find the additions to be brand specific?
I just use Williams extracts. Since water supplies, and water additions, can vary between brands, I wouldn't rely on the water chemistry to be the same.
 

BrewnWKopperKat

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A couple of years ago, I used the following technique to determine reasonable (for me) additions for Briess DME.
  • Create a 100ml solution for the salt (CaCl, CaS04) using 0.2 g of the salt
  • Using a 12 oz pour, add tablespoon(s) and/or teaspoon(s) of the solution to 'season to taste'.
  • Each tablespoon addition is roughly a 0.3 g per gallon addition of that salt in the recipe
(IIRC, someone over in AHA forums posted a similar approach that uses only a 4 oz pour).

Typically, I will add 0.25 g / gallon of CaS04 for classic hop forward styles.

eta: I scanned through my 'link' collection later this morning. A couple of random additions. I'm also one of those people who prefer lower levels of sulfate in beers (link). Adding salts at packaging time (link) was something I hadn't considered.


 
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BrewnWKopperKat

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How to Brew, 4e talks about using distilled, RO, or low mineral water.

Ever wonder what the book's definition of "low mineral water" is? Chapter 8, p 131 has the definition. Personal taste and brand of DME/LME may suggest lower values for Mg and Na.

There's an interesting experiment that I mentioned back in Oct 2021 (link) that one should be able to reproduce using DME/LME (the original experiment [link] was done all-grain).
 

BrewnWKopperKat

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aside: Rather than continuing to be more and more frustrated with forum/internet "link rot" (and my current note taking system), I'm going to take a break from this topic to "re-tool" and "recover" my existing notes. :mug:
 

BrewnWKopperKat

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A while back, I ended up with a 2nd induction cook-top. Occasionally, I'll construct a brew day where I brew two batches at the "same time". For this brew day, I brewed my "Citra Hop Sampler" (link) and an experimental Red IPA.

Here's the experimental "Red IPA Hop Sampler" recipe:
  • 24 oz Muntons Extra Light DME; 4 oz sugar
  • 3 oz Crystal 40; 5 oz Crystal 60; single crush;
  • 7 g Magnum (13.8 AA)
  • 35 g Amarillo (8.5 AA); purchased in Nov 19.
  • 5.0 g Lallemand Verdant
  • Irish Moss & Yeast Nutrient
  • 1.25 gal; OG 62; FG 13; color: amber (12-15)
BBR Hop Sampler process: add DME; bring to boil; add hops; turn off heat; let sit for 'a while', then chill.

For this recipe, I added the steeping grains at flame-on, the DME at 140F. Wort temperature dropped from 209F (boiling) to 170 in about 30 minutes.

The Amarillo hops had been in the back of my freezer for almost 3 years, so it was time to do something with them. The Magnum hop addition added bitterness that lower AA hops (Cascade, Centenial, ...) don't provide (at least for me) with the "Hop Sampler" process.

I used Verdant for both beers (Citra Hop Sampler, Red IPA sampler) and suspect it made both beers better. The Red IPA was good, despite the age of the Amarillo hops.

For the next time I brew a "Red IPA Hop Sampler", I may brew a "triangle" test, changing just the yeast.
 

D.B.Moody

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Here's the experimental "Red IPA Hop Sampler" recipe:
  • 24 oz Muntons Extra Light DME; 4 oz sugar
  • 3 oz Crystal 40; 5 oz Crystal 60; single crush;
  • 7 g Magnum (13.8 AA)
  • 35 g Amarillo (8.5 AA); purchased in Nov 19.
  • 5.0 g Lallemand Verdant
  • Irish Moss & Yeast Nutrient
  • 1.25 gal; OG 62; FG 13; color: amber (12-15)
BBR Hop Sampler process: add DME; bring to boil; add hops; turn off heat; let sit for 'a while', then chill.

I'm curious about the yeast nutrient addition. Is it just part of the BBR thing or do you find it valuable?
(I Googled BBR to find out what it is, but I did not go further into the process for a hop sampler.)
 
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BrewnWKopperKat

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I'm curious about the yeast nutrient addition. Is it just part of the BBR thing or do you find it valuable?
Adding Irish Moss and beer yeast nutrient is something that I do for all my recipes. I don't know if it is part of the BBR (Basic Brewing Radio) Hop Sampler process.

Do I find beer yeast nutrient valuable? Beer yeast nutrient includes zinc which can be missing from distilled/RO water [1]. So I view it as "cheap insurance" and the beers come out fine. Brewing a test batch without it is not on the long list of things I want to try.

If one is not using yeast nutrient and the recipe produces good beer, I don't see a reason to "buy the insurance" for that recipe.

===================

[1] Zinc and RO Water | Bru'n Water
 

BrewnWKopperKat

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About a month ago, I brewed using 'extra light' LME - mainly to make an enjoyable beer, but partially to compare LME to DME & try out techniques for determining the actual initial color of the extract. This was my standard small test batch.

I added all the LME to the kettle (heat off) at about 140F. As anticipated, it sank quickly to the bottom (like brewers crystals). It also seemed to dissolve quickly (unlike brewers crystals).

I was able to measure color at this point ( :( ). After the wort was pasteurized and before the boil started, I took a second sample for tasting. I also watched for "hot break" (while heating) and "foam" (start of boil) which I see with some brands of DME, but not others.

The boil didn't add an 'unexpected' amount of additional color. The wort flavor (relative to DME) seemed a little 'dull', but didn't have the traditional off-flavor descriptors associated with stale extract.

In the end, an additional dose of hops made the beer better. Sometimes home brewing is "science", sometimes it's "cooking".

I'm probably done talking about "extract darkens excessively in the boil". For well designed recipes, it doesn't.

As an aside, "partial boil with late additions" is an excellent technique for making 5 gallon batches on a stove top with smaller kettles. But it probably doesn't have the impact on color that 'conventional wisdom' suggests it does.

And I haven't given up on LME.

==================================================

Example: visual of "hot break" (while heating)
1648554124257.png


Example: visual of "foam" (start of boil)
1648554166580.png
 

ncbrewer

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As an aside, "partial boil with late additions" is an excellent technique for making 5 gallon batches on a stove top with smaller kettles. But it probably doesn't have the impact on color that 'conventional wisdom' suggests it does.
Interesting test. I started doing late additions for the conventional reason - less maillard reactions/darkening. I was never really impressed with the lighter color, although I didn't do a side-by-side comparison like you did. An advantage is better hop utilization. And when I add the late addition after the boil, it brings the temp down to 180F, which I like for doing a hop stand.
 

D.B.Moody

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As an aside, "partial boil with late additions" is an excellent technique for making 5 gallon batches on a stove top with smaller kettles.

An advantage is better hop utilization. And when I add the late addition after the boil, it brings the temp down to 180F, which I like for doing a hop stand.

I started doing my late addition because it allowed me to do a 30 minute boil. The better hop utilization more than makes up for the shorter boil time. I figured my late addition got the wort to about 175, and a test on one batch showed that to be true. Like @ncbrewer, that has allowed me to move my aroma hop addition to my cool down period before I top to 5 gallons.
I cannot speak much to color because I'm pretty much color blind, but the shorter and less concentrated boil has resulted in less caramelization on the bottom of my brew kettle. I'm not sure caramelization produces flavors I don't like, but it's probably better to be in charge of whether or not I'm getting them:).
BTW, @BrewnWKopperKat, I've never seen white foam like in that second picture. Are you sure that wasn't some mashed potatoes in a different pot? :mug:
 
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BrewnWKopperKat

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@ncbrewer , @D.B.Moody : good observations on the benefits of late additions and partial boils.

For my LME batch, the bottom of the kettle was pretty much the same as my DME+steep & all-grain batches. What was disappointing was that the color (at the start of the 30 min boil) was in the SRM 6-ish range (gold) and I was expecting SRM 3-ish (straw). About a year ago, in "How do I get lighter color with IPA?" (link), using "extra light" DME, I brewed a batch where the wort started the boil (left) and ended the boil (right) with these colors.

1648590811030.png
 

BrewnWKopperKat

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I started doing my late addition because it allowed me to do a 30 minute boil. The better hop utilization more than makes up for the shorter boil time. I figured my late addition got the wort to about 175, and a test on one batch showed that to be true.

Out of curiosity, I went back to the original Tinsenth utilization table.

There's a 'back of the envelope" calculation that suggests changing from a 60 minute boil to a 30 minute boil requires about 25% more hops. 211/163 = 1.3 or 30% - let's call that suggestion 'close enough'.

And it looks like adding half the DME at flameout with a 30 min boil yields the same utilization as a standard 60 min boil. Plus adding the DME/LME help with cool down. Nice!

As always, the final proof will be found in tasting the beer.

-----------------------------------------

1648996580852.png

[1] Hop Utilization Page
 

D.B.Moody

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Out of curiosity, I went back to the original Tinsenth utilization table.

There's a 'back of the envelope" calculation that suggests changing from a 60 minute boil to a 30 minute boil requires about 25% more hops. 211/163 = 1.3 or 30% - let's call that suggestion 'close enough'.

And it looks like adding half the DME at flameout with a 30 min boil yields the same utilization as a standard 60 min boil. Plus adding the DME/LME help with cool down. Nice!

As always, the final proof will be found in tasting the beer.

[1] Hop Utilization Page

Thanks for this, @BrewnWKopperKat.

As usual, I was unaware of such data. I just found some "rule of thumb" suggestions that said the 30 minute boil gets 90% of the alpha acids that a 60 minute boil gets and that a late addition of half the extract allows you reduce hops by 20% due to better utilization. This suggested to me that when combined I would get about a 10% gain in bitterness.

I don't know that I taste any difference. I can't even really make an accurate 10% change in hops with the tools I use. That can be close to my error in measurement. :)
 
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What I like to do is to enter a recipe in my Beer Smith software (V 2.3.1) as it was written originally. I make a copy of it to play with. I take note of the "IBU/SG ratio".
I then adjust boil time, extract addition times and sometimes even hop amounts (*) to shorten the boil time to keep the bitterness ratio in the ballpark. I strive for two extract additions. One after steeping any grains before turning up the heat and the remainder after flame out.
Now if it makes any actual difference or not, I "think" that adding any DME in the beginning and LME late is for the better color wise. I have no photographic evidence to prove this "thinking" so YMMV. This may or may not be the best way to do it but it works for me.
(*) If you buy hops in any sort of bulk amounts, doing this is more practical. I don't want to try and save small amts of various unused hops.)
Cheers, :mug:
Joel B.
 

BrewnWKopperKat

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... One [extract addition] after steeping any grains before turning up the heat and the remainder after flame out. [...] I "think" that adding any DME in the beginning and LME late is for the better color wise.

An good observation. When I was doing the wort color measurements, I did not include steeping grains in the recipe.

A primary cause of "darker than expected" is oxidized/stale LME which can be measured / tasted pre-boil. With that cause "out of the way", there may be secondary causes for extra darkening.

Crystal 60 + US-05 + refractometer + ph Meter can be used to confirm that steeping contributes more than just color and flavor to the wort. It may be interesting, over time, to discover how much of an impact it has.
 

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A primary cause of "darker than expected" is oxidized/stale LME which can be measured / tasted pre-boil.
The Briess website has some photos of their LME at varying ages after manufacture. It's very dramatic. I don't remember where on their website it is though.
 

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I am in the process of redoing my IPA recipe. I was thinking of doing a dry hop workaround by making a hop tea in 170 degree water and adding it at bottling time. Has anyone tried this?
 

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I am in the process of redoing my IPA recipe. I was thinking of doing a dry hop workaround by making a hop tea in 170 degree water and adding it at bottling time. Has anyone tried this?
Sounds like an interesting method.
Please do share the results.
 

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How long will the hops steep in the tea?
I wonder if 170 may still be hot enough to drive-off some aromatics.
Have you considered using some Cryo hops for maximum bang for the buck?
I presume you will add the tea to the bottling bucket and stir immediately before filling the bottles.
Can you flush the bucket with CO2 to create a blanket and reduce oxygen exposure?
 

D.B.Moody

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How long will the hops steep in the tea?
I wonder if 170 may still be hot enough to drive-off some aromatics.
I was figuring 20-30 minutes.

Your question about the driving off aromatics is why I'm asking about this. A hop stand type of extraction at 170 and down is what I do now. I was thinking that dry hopping is done cold, but, if I'm making a tea, can I just steep hops in room temperature for a few days? My understanding is that at under 170 the flavor and aromatics are extracted but not driven off.

If I do it, I'll post results, but I was hoping someone would say, "Yeah, that works great!"
 

PCABrewing

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I was figuring 20-30 minutes.

Your question about the driving off aromatics is why I'm asking about this. A hop stand type of extraction at 170 and down is what I do now. I was thinking that dry hopping is done cold, but, if I'm making a tea, can I just steep hops in room temperature for a few days? My understanding is that at under 170 the flavor and aromatics are extracted but not driven off.

If I do it, I'll post results, but I was hoping someone would say, "Yeah, that works great!"
Yeah I was thinking you could steep for a while. I'm sure there is a sweet-spot for the elevated temp to get the max out of them VS room temp. I may try this too next IPA.
 

D.B.Moody

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Yeah I was thinking you could steep for a while. I'm sure there is a sweet-spot for the elevated temp to get the max out of them VS room temp. I may try this too next IPA.
Maybe my question should involve whether I'm looking for flavor and aroma with a hot steep or just aroma with a cold steep. If I want both, do hot; if I want just aroma, do cold? Does this make sense? Have people tried one or both?
 
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BrewnWKopperKat

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For those curious about mineral content in various brands of extract, this topic (link) has some early May 2022 updates. Follow the links to additional information. Following the same links will also get to some discussion on steeping times.

eta: there was also a March 2022 topic over in Brewers Friend (link) with some information. I may have mentioned it earlier in this topic but couldn't immediately find it.

eta (2): breaking out the "steeping times" idea into a separate discussion.
 
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BrewnWKopperKat

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When steeping crystal / caramel malts, how "short and shoddy" can the steep be?

In the past, I've used the
add steeping grains at "flame-on" and remove at 160F-ish (or 20 minutes)
process.

Recently, I tried a 30 min cold steep in a side container. While it was steeping, I used a refractomenter to measure SG and observed color. The SG and perceived color measurements suggested the cold steep was mostly complete after 15 minutes (which matches something I read in one of the links in #271).

Part of the reason for my curiosity is this: I would like to brew two different beers at the same time. One of the requirements of the 2nd beer is the the process can be paused at any point in time (for say 15 to 20 minutes), then resumed. BBR's "Hop Sampler" process appears to be an solid starting point:
  1. heat water to a boil
  2. add DME
  3. add hops
  4. ignore pot while it cools
  5. move wort to fermenter
Adding steeping grains to the process is the next step. A steep from "flame on" to 160F may be one approach, the "cold steep" may be another. I'm also interested in what others are currently doing.

Thoughts?
 

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A steep from "flame on" to 160F may be one approach, the "cold steep" may be another. I'm also interested in what others are currently doing.

Thoughts?
I currently steep my grains in a side pot and then strain into the boil kettle which has been heating. I steep for 30 minutes by heating the water to almost 170 F, turning off the heat, dumping in the grains, and letting it sit with some stirring. I can turn on the heat if its falling below 150 F. I don't know if has to be heated *, but I was given to understand it should steep at 150-160 and that higher than 170 F would lead to unwanted results.

The other method, which I used first, was to steep while heating the boil water and removing the grains at about 160. That implies that heating at temperature may not be important. I quit doing it this way because I found it easier to steep in a side pot and strain the result.

If I didn't think the steep should be boiled to sanitize it, a cold steep could save me time and/or effort by just adding it after the partial boil I do. But I'm not sure that's a good Idea. I don't know that it's much different than tossing hops in that way, but I'm not sure I want to be the guy who tries it. Doing my steep in a side pot while the boil water heats up is already time saving.

When were you planning to add the cold steep?

*EDIT 5/28: I believe the heated steep is needed for carmel malts or things (like starches) are not extracted that contribute to the character of the brew.
 
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BrewnWKopperKat

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When were you planning to add the cold steep?
I'm a member of the "pasteurization is my friend" club - so the steeped wort would be added in time to ensure it's pasteurized.

And thanks for the observations on the other steeping processes that you have used. Those processes could work in my '2nd beer' approach.
 

D.B.Moody

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I'm a member of the "pasteurization is my friend" club - so the steeped wort would be added in time to ensure it's pasteurized.
I agree with that, but my problem using that idea is that I'm already lowering the boil to about 170-175 with my late addition. I can't then also throw in a cold steep without going below pasteurization levels. I'm not sure I could do a cold steep and then dissolve my late addition in that while I'm doing my 30 min. boil. Since it takes time to dissolve the DME in the boil water, to heat the boil water to boiling, and do the boil itself, there should be time to do the cold steep and dissolve the late addition DME. If I can convince myself that I can do that, it would be easier and probably a tad shorter than my current method. I think I'll have to try it the next time I have steeping grains in the brew.

Note: an edit changed the above while @BrewnWKopperKat was posting the post below. He did not see that I thought I could do a cold steep and intend to try it.
 
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BrewnWKopperKat

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I'm already lowering the boil to about 170-175 with my late addition. I can't then also throw in a cold steep without going below pasteurization levels.
Good point. In my '2nd beer' process, I would add the cold steep wort as the water is reaching a boil, probably before adding the DME and the hops.

If a cold steep is mostly done in 20 minutes, it may be that the approach is interesting but not too useful for most brew day processes. ( As an aside and way of topic: there's also the idea of 'cold extraction' (steeping base malts to produce a low ABV wort) - and if (speculation) a cold extraction process also does most of the work in 20 or 30 minutes (rather than overnight), that might be intresting to 'all-grain' brewers ).

The '2nd beer' process has some relatively unique constraints. I want to be able to 'pause' it at any point in time to focus on the primary beer. The process (at the moment) is 'resource' scarce - just one heat source, no digital timer, no digital thermometer with alarm, (etc). A cold steep (put the steeping grains in a container of water, then ignore it for 20+ minutes) seems to fit in the process with just an extra container. I may have time on Thursday for a late afternoon test batch.

eta: Thanks @D.B.Moody for the note (above) on the edits. Looking forward to reading what you find.
 
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You guys are rocking this thread. Lot's of great info here. I need to document my brewing better to maybe add to this convo. I have been doing the "conventional" steeping methods for the most part as it only adds a little time to my brew "day". I seldom boil longer than 45 min. and mostly around 30 min. My lack of a wort chiller is a time killer as far as brew day "total" time goes, then again I'm not convinced it's a "got to have" item. (more crap to clean). With a typical end of boil of 2 1/2 gal (+/-) I can cool that in a sink of cold water and frozen water bottles in pretty short order. But I have also removed a lot of heat with adding the remainder of my fermentables after the boil.
Again, you keep writing, I'll keep reading.
Cheers, :mug:
Joel B.
 

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I did a PLETO American Pale Ale on Saturday. First time ever doing late extract additions. 2-gallon boil of half the extract, seeped the grains in the extract held at 153 ish for 45ish minutes. Boiled for 60 min then at flameout added the other half of the extract and let it sit for 30 minutes. Temps stayed above 170 most of the time. How long do yall do the pasteurization step? I thought I saw 30 minutes. I searched up how long to pasteurize at 170 and it is seconds. Maybe 30 minutes is overkill? I chilled the brew pot in the sink with ice packs. It didn't take long to reduce the temps to the 100s. I added two gallons of chilled water to the fermenter, added the wort, temp settled down to the low 90's, topped up with room temp water(I used Kveik yeast so I didn't want too low of a temp), and temps settled in at low 80's. Pitched the yeast, shook the snot out of the fermenter, then set it in my brew bag to brew. It took off like a rocket.

Today is day 3 and it is slightly slowing down, I'll likely bottle this weekend. I used a fair amount of hops. 4 oz in the last 5 minutes in addition to an ounce at boiling. What do yall think about bottling it so fast? Should I leave it on the yeast for another week? Or let it condition in the bottle. The Kveik Voss will burn through all the sugars before the weekend.
 

BrewnWKopperKat

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Boiled for 60 min then at flameout added the other half of the extract and let it sit for 30 minutes. Temps stayed above 170 most of the time. How long do yall do the pasteurization step? I thought I saw 30 minutes. I searched up how long to pasteurize at 170 and it is seconds. Maybe 30 minutes is overkill?
How to Brew, 4e, p 14 (paraphrasing): add extract at end of boil after last hop addition; pasteurization "takes a couple of minutes". I did a partial mash boil batch this past weekend, adding the DME slurry starting at 10 min before the end of the boil.

What do yall think about bottling it so fast? Should I leave it on the yeast for another week?
If FG is 1) stable over a couple of days and 2) within the estimated range for the recipe, the beer is generally ready to bottle.
 

cajunrph

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How to Brew, 4e, p 14 (paraphrasing): add extract at end of boil after last hop addition; pasteurization "takes a couple of minutes". I did a partial mash boil batch this past weekend, adding the DME slurry starting at 10 min before the end of the boil.


If FG is 1) stable over a couple of days and 2) within the estimated range for the recipe, the beer is generally ready to bottle.
The SG will be stabilized in a day or so. Kveik is a beast. This one will likely need to bottle condition for a few weeks at least. Maybe more. My sister is coming down for my son's graduation in 10 days. I was hoping for a drinkable beer. I do have two of my Scottish Strong Ales from last year. Sister and I may just enjoy that one. We shall see.
 
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