Adding sugar after high krausen? RIS recipe

[Alan Reginato]

Hi, everyone.
I'm thinking about doing this:

Biab All Grain
Yeast Nottingham, yeast cake.
Batch Size 7.9 gallons/30 L to fermenter 5.3 gallons/20 L
Full Mash 120 min @ 151 F/66 C
OG 1.081 FG 1.009 ABV 10%
Boiling Time 90 min
IBU 76. Idaho 7 (12,7 AA) 1.2 oz/35 g@ 90 and 0.5 oz/1 g @ 15.
Color 30 SRM (60 ebc)
Fermentation 14 days @ 53-59 F/12-15 C

Grain bill
70.5 % Pilsen malt 2 L 11.6 lb/5.25 kg
6.7 % Chocolate Malt 350 L 1.1lb/0.5 kg
22.8 % inverted sugar cane 0 L 3.8 lb/1.7 kg

So, I'm wondering when is the best moment to add the sugar cane. Some articles suggest after high krausen.
In your opinion, or experience, how does it affect the beer?

 

[hotbeer]

Doesn't the recipe tell you when to add it? If you don't add at the times they say too, then you aren't making that particular beer.

Or are you just wanting a hypothetical discussion of what the end result might be?

 

[Miraculix]

You are adding the sugar very late, to keep the yeast as relaxed as possible by lowering the maximum sugar concentration in the wort. Ideally you would add the sugar shortly before the fermentation is done.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Interesting recipe. I am not sure Pils + Sugar + 6.7% 350L Chocolate Malt will make a beer that most people would call an Russian Imperial Stout. Maybe a big Brown Ale. I am usually a "Keep it Simple" guy, but I find that bit stouts are a style that can handle a more complex grain bill.

 

[Alan Reginato]

Doesn't the recipe tell you when to add it? If you don't add at the times they say too, then you aren't making that particular beer.

Or are you just wanting a hypothetical discussion of what the end result might be?

No, because I make my own recipes.

I will brew it soon, probably next weekend.
therefore some opinions about it could help.

 

[Alan Reginato]

You are adding the sugar very late, to keep the yeast as relaxed as possible by lowering the maximum sugar concentration in the wort. Ideally you would add the sugar shortly before the fermentation is done.

That's the idea, this time I'm thinking to do something like that you suggested.

 

[Alan Reginato]

Interesting recipe. I am not sure Pils + Sugar + 6.7% 350L Chocolate Malt will make a beer that most people would call an Russian Imperial Stout. Maybe a big Brown Ale. I am usually a "Keep it Simple" guy, but I find that bit stouts are a style that can handle a more complex grain bill.

ABV 10%, IBU 76, color 30 SRM, falls between the limits of BJCP Beer Style Guidelines for RIS. In the fact, doesn't matter too much to me.

 

[IslandLizard]

That's the idea, this time I'm thinking to do something like that you suggested.

I always wait for either the krausen to start dropping or around 80% of the expected attenuation, basically when things start to slow down, before adding sugars, syrups, etc.
Dissolve the sugar(s) in some hot or boiling water. It should be pourable, but not too thin to prevent diluting your beer any more than necessary.

Instead of using water you could save out some of your wort, and freeze it. Then reboil when you're ready to make your sugar solution.

22.8% sugar sounds like a lot...

 

[Miraculix]

I agree, 22.8% sounds really high. You could theoretically also divide the suagr addition into two steps, wait till the first has fermented completely and then add the second. But on the other hand, the OG is not terribly high, so I would not bother in this case. I wouldn't even bother delaying the sugar, I would throw it in at flame out and be done with it. When you approach an OG of 1.1 or higher, I would start doing a staggered addition. I think the sources I read were recommending it from 1.09 onwards or something like this... do not remember exactly.

 

[cmac62]

This is going to be a very thin RIS. You might want to add something for body IMHO.

 

[Beermeister32]

I’ve been reducing my ABV down to the 4.5-6% range in most of my beers. I just think they are more drinkable in that range.

 

[Alan Reginato]

Thanks for the replies!

Considering yours feedback, I will lower the sugar content to 1 kg (15%), dropping the ABV to 8-9%.

Also, I have two small fermentation vessels. So, in one of them will be thrown half of sugar paired with the cooled wort and in the other just after high krausen. Shall be a nice experiment.

Cheers!

 

[Dgallo]

I’ve done some experimenting with adding the sugar later during late fermentation in my triple ipas and it does seem to make a smoother beer with less alcohol notes. I’m sure it will do the same for you.

 

[IslandLizard]

Considering yours feedback, I will lower the sugar content to 1 kg (15%), dropping the ABV to 8-9%.

If you want the higher gravity, and mash volume is the restriction, you can always add some DME at the end of the boil to boost your OG.

 

[Alan Reginato]

Thanks for the replies!

Considering yours feedback, I will lower the sugar content to 1 kg (15%), dropping the ABV to 8-9%.

Also, I have two small fermentation vessels. So, in one of them will be thrown half of sugar paired with the cooled wort and in the other just after high krausen. Shall be a nice experiment.

Cheers!

Ok. I made it, two fermenters. Brewed 4 months ago.

So, in a side by side test, no difference while the beer was cold. But, when it reaches room temp, there is a slight fruit/solvent taste in the one that was added sugar prior fermentation.

Anyway, I won't add sugar anymore, got better brewhouse efficiency with longer mashes, squeezing the bag and filtering wort. But was nice to experiment with it.

BTW, fruit forwarded hops doesn't pair well with bitter beer, only after 4 months that sweet flavours faded away, at a decent point.

 

[McMullan]

Ok. I made it, two fermenters. Brewed 4 months ago.

So, in a side by side test, no difference while the beer was cold. But, when it reaches room temp, there is a slight fruit/solvent taste in the one that was added sugar prior fermentation.

Anyway, I won't add sugar anymore, got better brewhouse efficiency with longer mashes, squeezing the bag and filtering wort. But was nice to experiment with it.

BTW, fruit forwarded hops doesn't pair well with bitter beer, only after 4 months that sweet flavours faded away, at a decent point.

How do you know the 'slight fruit/solvent taste' you sensed had anything to do with the schedule used for adding sugar? It's equally likely to have been caused by a factor(s) associated with using separate FVs. Pitching different yeast, including different fractions from the same slurry, for instance. Sugar additions undeniably have a place in brewing some of the finest beers in the world. You might be selling yourself short here by rejecting them so keenly. It seems to be a common view expressed by all-grain home brewers. Possibly biased by viewing progressing from extract brewing as moving away from 'inferior' sugary syrups? All grain purists?

 

[Alan Reginato]

How do you know the 'slight fruit/solvent taste' you sensed had anything to do with the schedule used for adding sugar? It's equally likely to have been caused by a factor(s) associated with using separate FVs. Pitching different yeast, including different fractions from the same slurry, for instance. Sugar additions undeniably have a place in brewing some of the finest beers in the world. You might be selling yourself short here by rejecting them so keenly. It seems to be a common view expressed by all-grain home brewers. Possibly biased by viewing progressing from extract brewing as moving away from 'inferior' sugary syrups? All grain purists?

I didn't said it's caused by sugar's schedule, only said that "there is" a slight different taste. Could be fusels and/or esters, that showed increased production in presence of simply sugars, like glucose, fructose and sucrose.
In the beginning of the process, could be caused by "ehrlich pathway", in presence of amino acids. If added after high krausen, there would be less FAN available.

Not a big issue, I'm moving to less ABV beers, so no adjuncts needed. Even I like it to be dry, mash schedule and high attenuative yeast should be enough, to me.


So.... Be nice, I'm only sharing personal experiences here.

Cheers!

 

[VikeMan]

Sugar additions undeniably have a place in brewing some of the finest beers in the world. You might be selling yourself short here by rejecting them so keenly.

I'm trying very hard to think of a world class RIS, or even a very good one, that uses a simple sugar addition. Yes, sugar has its place, but that place is not in most styles. And @Alan Reginato was attempting to make a RIS.

 

[Alan Reginato]

I'm trying very hard to think of a world class RIS, or even a very good one, that uses a simple sugar addition. Yes, sugar has its place, but that place is not in most styles. And @Alan Reginato was attempting to make a RIS.

Actually, it got demoted from RIS, to American Stout or FES. Depends on point of view.
Nothing against using sugar, just sharing experiences.

 

[McMullan]

I'm trying very hard to think of a world class RIS, or even a very good one, that uses a simple sugar addition. Yes, sugar has its place, but that place is not in most styles. And @Alan Reginato was attempting to make a RIS.

I read it as a decision not to use brewing sugars generally. Personally, I prefer my RISs with some added British inverted brewing sugars. I suspect had the use of brewing sugars been a thing back when the RIS style was developed they'd have been included in the recipes. Obviously neither here nor there, but I prefer it with.

 

[McMullan]

So.... Be nice, I'm only sharing personal experiences here.

Cheers!

Sorry, I wasn't aware that I wasn't being nice. Personally, I embrace and appreciate constructive criticism. In fact, it's a very nice thing to offer, imo. It shows you care. I guess how it's received depends on how folk choose to view the world.

 

[Alan Reginato]

Sorry, I wasn't aware that I wasn't being nice. Personally, I embrace and appreciate constructive criticism. In fact, it's a very nice thing to offer, imo. It shows you care. I guess how it's received depends on how folk choose to view the world.

Thanks for care about others forum's members. IMHO just whatch your tone, sometimes seems a little aggressive. Not saying just here, but in other posts too.

I think forums are a good place for sharing opinions and perspectives, but when I seek for technical information, I usually got it in free academic articles.
And guess what? Not even researchers got conclusive answers about some questions.
Esters and fusel production are an area that still have some space for research, specially when we talk about sugar adjuncts and their contribution on beer flavour profile.
But seems that the addition schedule has an impact on those fermentation bioproducts.

Like someone else said, relax, have a homebrew.

 

[McMullan]

Yeah, there are relatively few conclusive scientific answers to most brewing questions. To most questions about most things, in fact. Science is a challenge at the best of times. It takes years of concerted effort that most aren't prepared for. I'm humbled daily by nature and my tiny insignificance in it. That's why it's often better to proceed empirically. Cherry picking limited technical publications offering hypotheses, that get lost in the literature therefore never tested and rejected/confirmed, and limited personal experiences isn't really how thing progress in brewing.

 

[Alan Reginato]

Update.
A little late, but at Jan 15, 2022, I opened the last couple of bottles and there isn't any perceptible difference between them. Any thoughs?

 

[BrewZer]

Update.
A little late, but at Jan 15, 2022, I opened the last couple of bottles and there isn't any perceptible difference between them. Any thoughs?

"Time Heals All Wounds."

Usually. My Abbey Honey Ale started out a bit tart and cidery (with 3 lbs of honey in 5.5 gallons), but after 4 months in the fridge, has turned positively TANGY.

We're gonna be cooking more with beer, looks like...