Adding salts to finished beer?

[rabeb25]

I have a light lager here that tastes good, but it has a little bit too much lingering bitterness for the style. Wondering if adding some cacl(or something) to the finished beer could help with that? If not its no big deal, its just a little out of the style guidelines. FYI I used the yellow malty as the water profile to brew the beer.

Thanks

 

[ajdelange]

You are the only one that can answer that question.

 

[rabeb25]

Is this you telling me to pour a glass of beer, add some cacl and try it?Any guidelines or tips?

 

[Hello]

Is this you telling me to pour a glass of beer, add some cacl and try it?Any guidelines or tips?

Yes and start small, scale up.

 

[mabrungard]

If the lingering bitterness was a result of excess sulfate, adding more chloride is not likely to solve the problem. The sulfate/chloride ratio is useless in that respect. The likely result in the case of high sulfate with added chloride is 'minerally' flavor.

But its worth the experience to learn something. Go for it.

 

[ajdelange]

Is this you telling me to pour a glass of beer, add some cacl and try it?Any guidelines or tips?

Yes. It might be a good idea to go buy a six pack of some megaswill and experiment with adding pinches of calcium sulfate and calcium chloride with tastings as you go. From this you will learn the effects of both the chloride ion and calcium ion on beer flavor. You can then try the same experiments with your beer. Some chloride may improve it. Generations of drinkers thought so as they regularly added table salt to their beer in bars. No guarantee here. It won't make your problem go away but may improve the beer to the point where you don't notice the problem so much.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Try it out and let us know. I made a boring light lager and experimented with CaCl (200 ppm Cl) then gypsum (300 ppm SO4). I'll be damned if I could taste any difference when tasting the 3 samples blind.

 

[ajdelange]

Reading this it occurs to me that if there aren't any hops to speak of in the beer you are doctoring you probably won't notice much effect from sulfate so my suggestion in #6 to work with megaswill is probably not a good one. OTOH I am surprised that no effect of chloride was noticed.

 

[pjj2ba]

I've messed with adding CaCl2 to a porter that wasn't quite as smooth as I would like. I actually had some friends over and we did this as blind triangle tests. Some could tell the difference, others could not. For me 40 ppm of extra CaCl2 made a difference in the taste of the the beer (made it smoother)

 

[TyTanium]

As a general rule I've found that "tinkering" usually does more harm than good. I'd either leave it or blend back with another beer.

+1 for experimenting with a small glass.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Reading this it occurs to me that if there aren't any hops to speak of in the beer you are doctoring you probably won't notice much effect from sulfate so my suggestion in #6 to work with megaswill is probably not a good one. OTOH I am surprised that no effect of chloride was noticed.

Interesting. Might explain why I (or my wife) didn't taste any difference with added gypsum-- the base beer had no noticeable hops. Which kind of justifies the old-timey recipes that call for adding a tsp of gypsum to any beer... probably wont hurt, and may even help. Lol

 

[mchrispen]

This is one of my favorite exercises to educate some of my friends. One of the problems is that measured dosing is difficult to do - and can nucleate finished beer. You get very different effects depending on the beer - hop levels and cultivars. It works better if it is a beer that you brew without adding salts, but have an idea of what the water profile is... then you can adjust up appropriately. I make up 1 or 2 gram per liter solutions in DI water, and dose a ml at a time, that way I can calculate a better approximation of the additives for the recipe.

It takes FAR less gypsum to make a nice saison taste terrible, than it does to make say, a hop forward amber. This test convinced me to drive my APA sulfate levels to just under 300 ppm, which will make AJ wince. I only do calcium chloride with very malty beers, like a tripel or porter - and it seems to take a fair bit to taste a real difference. It seems more subtle to me, then suddenly tip over to very minerally.

 

[GRBC]

Can you guys help me interpret/calculate my results?

I just took a hop forward pale ale that I brewed with about 70ppm sulfate in the original mash.

I dosed 4 separate 100ml samples of my base beer with 1 / 2 / 4 / 8 ml of a 1 gram per liter solution of gypsum in distilled water and tasted each along with an undosed 100ml sample of the base beer.

I couldn't tell much difference in the 1ml dose sample.

The 2 & 4 ml samples were my favorites. Noticeably drier finish. Not sure if the hop expression increased, or the malt sweetness/fullness was less apparent, but I think it is the latter. I liked the 4ml sample better at first, but the more I kept comparing, the more I liked the 2ml dose.

The 8ml dose sample was shocking. Almost tasted like seltzer. Really unpleasant. Poured it out after two tastes.

So, I guess my question is what do my samples dosed with 2ml and 4ml equate to in relation to my 70ppm sulfate base beer? In other words, if I want to rebrew this pale ale with sulfate at the level of my samples, what starting ppm of sulfate does that represent? Thanks!

Bill

 

[Sock]

subbed I need to learn more about this.

 

[GRBC]

Can you guys help me interpret/calculate my results?

I just took a hop forward pale ale that I brewed with about 70ppm sulfate in the original mash.

I dosed 4 separate 100ml samples of my base beer with 1 / 2 / 4 / 8 ml of a 1 gram per liter solution of gypsum in distilled water and tasted each along with an undosed 100ml sample of the base beer.

I couldn't tell much difference in the 1ml dose sample.

The 2 & 4 ml samples were my favorites. Noticeably drier finish. Not sure if the hop expression increased, or the malt sweetness/fullness was less apparent, but I think it is the latter. I liked the 4ml sample better at first, but the more I kept comparing, the more I liked the 2ml dose.

The 8ml dose sample was shocking. Almost tasted like seltzer. Really unpleasant. Poured it out after two tastes.

So, I guess my question is what do my samples dosed with 2ml and 4ml equate to in relation to my 70ppm sulfate base beer? In other words, if I want to rebrew this pale ale with sulfate at the level of my samples, what starting ppm of sulfate does that represent? Thanks!

Bill

OK, so I started feeling like my question was lazy. Let me try to work this out, and any corrections are appreciated.

My 1 gram / liter solution of gypsum in distilled water is 1000mg/l which is 1000ppm sulfate.

One ml of this solution is 1ppm.

My 100ml sample is 1/200th of my 5 gallon keg (100ml*10=1 liter * 20=20 liters = ~5 gallons)

So my 1ml dose in 100ml of beer is was roughly equivalent to a dose of 200ppm sulfate in a 5 gallon batch? My 8ml dose was 1,600ppm sulfate? Seems too high...

 

[BrewKnurd]

OK, so I started feeling like my question was lazy. Let me try to work this out, and any corrections are appreciated.

My 1 gram / liter solution of gypsum in distilled water is 1000mg/l which is 1000ppm sulfate.

One ml of this solution is 1ppm.

My 100ml sample is 1/200th of my 5 gallon keg (100ml*10=1 liter * 20=20 liters = ~5 gallons)

So my 1ml dose in 100ml of beer is was roughly equivalent to a dose of 200ppm sulfate in a 5 gallon batch? My 8ml dose was 1,600ppm sulfate? Seems too high...

In short…. no.

You have to be careful to keep track of what the units mean. PPM, parts per million, is a measure of concentration. i.e., if you have a 1L solution which is 1000 ppm, when you take only 1 mL of it, the concentration is still 1000 ppm. you just have a lot less of it.

So when trying to figure out the final concentration of sulfate in a finished sample, the most straightforward way (IMO) is to track the mass of sulfate that ends up in a given volume, then calculate ppm at that point.

Secondly, 1000 ppm gypsum and 1000 ppm sulfate are not the same thing. So based on the mass of gypsum, you need to calculate how much sulfate was in the gypsum and use that for your calcs. Gypsum, CaSO4*2H2O, is in the ballpark of 56% sulfate by weight if I did my fast math right.

Carry on with the working it out, hope this helps.

 

[GRBC]

OK, so I started feeling like my question was lazy. Let me try to work this out, and any corrections are appreciated.

My 1 gram / liter solution of gypsum in distilled water is 1000mg/l which is 1000ppm gypsum.

One ml of this solution is 1mg of gypsum.

My 100ml sample of beer is 1/200th of my 5 gallon keg (100ml*10=1 liter * 20=20 liters = ~5 gallons)

So my 1ml dose in 100ml of beer is was roughly equivalent to a dose of 200mg gypsum in a 5 gallon batch? My 8ml dose was 1,600mg gypsum?...

That does help. I see my mistake with concentration vs. weights and think i fixed it above. Now, does that mean that my preferred doses of 2ml and 4ml only equaled between 400mg and 800mg or .4 and .8 of an additional gram of gypsum? Seems too low!

 

[GRBC]

Math is hard...so I used a calculator!

Using Brewer's Friend, I entered my Water Volume as 0.1 liter which represented my 100ml sample of base beer.

In Source Water, I entered 70ppm of sulfate which was my calculated level from my brewing log after adding 2 grams of gypsum to the 36 liter (no-sparge) mash of my base beer (my tap water sulfate is 39ppm).

In the Salt Additions section, I put in 0.001 / 0.002 / 0.004 / 0.008 grams of gypsum to reflect my 1/2/4/8 ml = mg doses.

In the Overall Water Report section, that resulted in calculated sulfate ppm of 75.6 / 81.2 / 92.3 / 114.6 in my 1/2/4/8 ml dosed samples.

Interesting. I found the 8ml sample fairly objectionable at only 115ppm sulfate. We frequently see profiles recommending 300ppm sulfate, and some even higher.

My base beer is a hop-bursted low gravity, session pale ale (1.040 SG / 35 IBU), so that could be a factor, but I'm still surprised. I think I will try this again next time I brew a more typical IPA, but I definitely won't be starting that brew with a sulfate level much higher than 100ppm.





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[mchrispen]

That makes sense - without running the math directly - it looks correct.

Sulfate sensitivity can be highly personal. It sounds like your sensitivity is lower than mine. I use a slightly higher APA for my house calibration beer, and brew it at least 3 times a year. I push the sulfates to about 250 ppm. More than that and I find it too sharp. It would be interesting to see if you think Sierra Nevada Pale Ale is too minerally.

I like my saisons pale and fairly hoppy. However, I keep the sulfate very moderate - around 50 ppm, unless using American hops - and then I push to about 100 ppm. I believe that the expressed dryness from the sulfate helps keep the saison dry against the strong fruity character of American hops.

 

[GRBC]

I love SNPA, and commercial IPA/IIPAs that I suspect are brewed with water that is made to be much higher in sulfate (Two Hearted Ale, Stone Ruination, Green Flash West Coast IPA, etc.). I have never found them to be too mineral. Do you know what the ion concentrations are that used for SNPA?

Makes me wonder if gypsum added directly to the finished beer has a different effect from gypsum added to the mash? Who knows, maybe the interaction of the gypsum with the water, grains, hops, yeast during mashing, boiling, and fermenting results in a different flavor profile?

That would be an interesting experiment. Brew a SNPA type beer with 300ppm sulfate and compare it to one brewed with 100ppm sulfate which is then dosed to 300ppm total sulfate in the finished beer and compare the three.

 

[GRBC]

I think part of it is the fact that my base beer is a 3.8% ABV, 1.040 OG, 30 IBU session pale ale.

Perhaps there is a sulfate to ABV/OG/IBU ratio that is analogous to the IBU/GU ratio that we use for bitterness. In other words, the higher your ________ (ABV, OG, IBU, ?), the more sulfate that can be supplied before you tip over to a minerally flavor? Just like the number of IBUs that will make beer flavor tilt towards bitterness is a moving target based on the starting & finishing gravity of the beer.

I'm thinking that if I scaled my session pale ale up to an IPA @ 1.070 with 60 IBU, that the same 115ppm of sulfate would not be objectionable.

 

[mchrispen]

Ultimately the real tell will be brewing repeatedly shifting the levels enough to make a difference. Your experiment is a good baseline... So I might start lower and move new brews up till you are happy. I got frustrated after four brews, and jumped right to the Bru'n Water Pale Ale profile. It was a marked difference and my APA scores consistently pushed 40.

It is difficult to be precise about SNPA sulfate levels! I cannot find any legit direct data. But based on a tour and some research I believe they run north of 300 ppm sulfate and about 55 ppm chloride. That seems a sweet spot for a cascade driven flavor for me. I think their Torpedo has the beginning of a mineral taste, but was told it was the identical liquor to SNPA. The reality maybe completely different... So no fair quoting me.

Maybe Martin will do a Northern Cali water article soon... Starting in Santa Rosa and moving up into a Chico...


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[Yooper]

That would be an interesting experiment. Brew a SNPA type beer with 300ppm sulfate and compare it to one brewed with 100ppm sulfate which is then dosed to 300ppm total sulfate in the finished beer and compare the three.

I've never done a three way comparison- but I know from experience that I have a couple of SNPA/Mirror Pond type of beers where I like 125-150 ppm sulfate. In fact, I'm drinking one now. I made it with 275 ppm sulfate, and did NOT like it a bit (all other things remained roughly the same, including the mash pH).

I have a couple of IPAs that I love at 230-250 ppm of sulfate (again, other ions including chloride are low). But only a couple. I'm one of "those people" who prefers a lower level of sulfate in most beers.

I say that with quotes, as I know that someone I respect greatly as a fellow BJCP judge disagrees strongly with me, and usually prefers the higher sulfate level in the same beers. (mabrungard).

I respect him, his water knowledge, his contributions, and his palate greatly!

The thing is- since we're homebrewers we can cater to our own palate and that's what I generally do. I rarely enter competitions any more, and brew to my tastes, along with my own personal homebrew taste tester and life partner. He tends to like more hoppy ambers, with a softer bitterness profile, so he also loves the beers with enough sulfate to make the hops bitterness apparent, but never harsh or overdone. I brew what we love to drink, and in general for most IPAs and APAs, it is a less sulfate profile than the recommended 300 ppm, generally 125-150 ppm.

 

[GRBC]

You lost me at "I've never done a three way....blah, blah, something, something...😜

But I think I might be one of "those people" too. Probably the only way to know for sure is for both of us to brew a low sulfate ipa and then consider a three way comparison!

 

[mchrispen]

It is very possible that some of the sulfate solution might have particles not fully dissolved and may have a stronger mineral flavor. I know if I do the solution with cold water, it takes a bit for the milky appearance to dissipate and some of the solids appear to settle out. I have been using boiling distilled water to make the solution and then let that slowly cool... I seem to have better results. Even with that said - my doctored finished beers do not taste identical to beers make with the salt prepared liquor, but very close. The experiment should get you into the ballpark.

I do like the three way comparison idea.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Resurrecting an old thread instead of starting a new one since there is good info here.

I have been playing around with doctoring beer samples based on info from this thread with mixed results. I made up 3 separate solutions at a 2 grams per liter strength with additions of Calcium Chloride, Gypsum and Both. After a few rounds of testing I did some calcs I realized that solutions at that ratio would not even get me close to my water additions (without adding around 20 ml to a 200 ml beer sample).

I am working to dial in my water additions, but for a Pale Ale/IPA profile I think I want the following additions:

• Gypsum: 1.0 g/gal
• Epsom Salt: 0.2 g/gal
• Table Salt: 0.1 g/gal

With my base water I don't feel I need Calcium Chloride for this style and a little Epsom Salt and Table Salt (which might not be needed) seem to round out my numbers on paper.

My calcs show that instead of around 2 grams into a liter, I need a LOT more (the following are mixed into 1/2 liter of water with adding 2 ml of this solution to a 200 ml beer sample):

• Gypsum: 13 g
• Epsom Salt: 2.6 g
• Table Salt: 1.3 g

I just tried this and for the first time I feel like I am making meaningful progress on being able to doctor beers (a Pale Ale in my case). I am excited to try a few different ratios and to try this for some other styles of beer.

TL;DR: If you want to doctor your beers to raise Sulfate from 33 ppm to 250 ppm, you probably need around 2 ml of a 26 grams per liter solution of Gypsum mixed into 200 ml of beer.