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Adding Body But Not Color

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Virginia_Ranger

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I am tweaking a DIPA (NEIPA style) recipe and really looking to stay as close to straw yellow as possible but can't seem to do so with my steeping grains.

Currently my bill is:

6 lb Pilsner DME
1 lb Bavarian Wheat DME

1.5 lb Flaked Oats
0.5 lb Carapils
0.2 lb Crystal 20

I am getting 5 SRM on brewers friend and really want to make sure I can included the steeping the grains for body and some sweetness but I have found even in the 4 SRM range and adding half the extract at flame out - I still get a bright but much more orange beer than a pale straw yellow one. Any suggestions?

P.S. I keg, ferment under pressure, CO2 purge everything, and do closed transfers --- oxidation is minimized everywhere.
 

Cavpilot2000

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You need to go all grain.
I'm not knocking extract-and-grains, I did it for probably 12 years before making the switch. You just can't get truly pale beer with extract.

But, things that will help:
Ditch the Crystal 20 and switch to CaraHell.
Up the Carahell to half a pound.
 

chezhed

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Agree with the switch to CaraHell (10L) for a start. Extracts are very difficult to keep color low for sure. Any little bit that gets to the hot kettle bottom will darken, especially DME. You might try LME instead as it mixes quicker and you can even preheat it....
What is your boil time? Reduce it....
 

VirginiaHops1

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Try shifting more of the extract to flameout. The longer extract boils the darker it gets. You need something in the boil to keep your hop utilization from being wacky but you really don't need much. Try like .5 lb in the boil and the rest at flameout. May help a little. Or since you're steeping grain maybe you can hold it all until flameout. I dunno, something you could play around with.

But I agree with PP, if controlling your color is really important to you you'll need to look at all-grain.
 

Cavpilot2000

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Agree on boil length too - it's been a while since I used extract.
Especally doing a NEIPA style, you can cut your boil down to 30 minutes. No need for anything longer because you don't need long isomerization times. Many NEIPAs don't use any boil hops whatsoever, only flameout on.

Heck, I only boil 30 minutes on my all-grain NEIPAs.
 
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Virginia_Ranger

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Thanks, CaraHell is a new one to me so I will try it! As for boil I have only ever been doing a 15 min boil with good results, I do most of my hops around 150-160 whirpool anyways. Right now I have been doing half DME right before boil and then half at flame out. I have been trying to do full volume boils (instead of boil 2 and top off with 2 gallons on 4 gallon batch) but have wondered if color wise this is making things darker.
 

BrewnWKopperKat

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I am getting 5 SRM on brewers friend and really want to make sure I can included the steeping the grains for body and some sweetness but I have found even in the 4 SRM range and adding half the extract at flame out - I still get a bright but much more orange beer than a pale straw yellow one. Any suggestions?
http://menuinprogress.com/2007/08/on-importance-of-late-extract-addition.html should be helpful in understanding the impact of color if you are doing a longer boil.

That was 2007. It's 2019.

I would suspect that someone active in this topic https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/no-boil-recipes-new-for-2019.660329/ may be able to help.

@Cavpilot2000's advice on going "all-grain" when you absolutely need the lightest color possible is sound.

If you are looking to try something that might be "close enough", reformulating the recipe for a partial mash (replace the wheat DME with wheat malt, add pilsen malt to get the necessary DP) and adding all the DME at the end of the boil may produce the desired result.
 

IslandLizard

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I'm always wondering what you'd get from the oat flakes, or any raw, unmalted grain, in extract brews, without mashing it properly.

Are you using Briess Pilsen Light DME? That's the lightest color extract around, 2°L.

I'd use even less than 50% in the boil, maybe 20% max, and boil shorter, and less vigorously, if at all. You still get plenty of bittering at 180-190F, even at 170F during hopstand/whirlpool with typical hop amounts used in NEIPAs, at that point. Then add the rest at 170F at the end of the whirlpool.

Extract doesn't have to be boiled, pasteurization is all it needs.

Bavarian Wheat DME is 3°L, not sure you need it, you could just use all Light Pilsen.
 

Dgallo

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I'm always wondering what you'd get from the oat flakes, or any raw, unmalted grain, in extract brews, without mashing it properly.
As long as you’re in the temp range of 152-165 for your steep for 30mins and your ph is right you will have enzymatic reaction. Obviously flaked grain produces less fermetable sugars vs. their malted counter parts but that the entire reason your using them for building the body. This is achieved in both mashing abc steeping
 

Dgallo

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Where are the enzymes coming from? Flaked oats are not malted.
Should be coming from the extract correct? I never read that boiling temperatures destroy them, just makes them ineffective at higher temps.
 

IslandLizard

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Should be coming from the extract correct? I never read that boiling temperatures destroy them, just makes them ineffective at higher temps.
Extract is made by boiling wort (from a proper mash), then evaporating the water content. There are no enzymes left.

Enzymes are proteins, they denature at higher temps, certainly during boiling.
 

S-Met

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I'm always wondering what you'd get from the oat flakes, or any raw, unmalted grain, in extract brews, without mashing it properly.

Are you using Briess Pilsen Light DME? That's the lightest color extract around, 2°L.
I'd use even less than 50% in the boil, maybe 20% max, and boil shorter, if at all. You still get plenty of bittering at 180-190F, even at 170F during hopstand/whirlpool with typical hop amounts used in NEIPAs, at that point. Then add the rest at 170F at the end of the whirlpool. It doesn't have to be boiled, pasteurization is all it needs.
Almost my thoughts exactly! With extract, I've been bringing up to a boil then cutting heat and mixing in extract. If bittering, add hops and let it steep. For me, Roughly takes about 30min (ambient temp dependent) to drop 30 degrees, then I'll start cooling and add late hops.

May not be smart or correct, but it is what I've been doing and I've been happy with the results.
:off:
But using the above method, I've kegged, brewed and smoked before 10am on a Saturday morning (smoke not complete until later) all at a very relaxed pace.
 

Dgallo

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Extract is made by boiling wort (from a proper mash), then evaporating the water content. There are no enzymes left.

Enzymes are proteins, they denature at higher temps, certainly during boiling.
Good to know.

Though the starches are not fermentable, they still would dissolve in the wort and so would the proteins which would provide body. Same idea as adding lactose or maltodextrin without sweetness
 

IslandLizard

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Good to know.

Though the starches are not fermentable, they still would dissolve in the wort and so would the proteins which would provide body. Same idea as adding lactose or maltodextrin without sweetness
I'm not sure how much of those starches and proteins remain after the boil, they generally precipitate out as hot and cold break (becomes trub). Now a hot temp steep may leave more of them dissolved/suspended, but later on, chilling takes a shot at them.

We know dextrins are small enough to remain dissolved/suspended. That's part of what gives beer mouthfeel.

Lactose (milk sugar) is sweet. It remains in the beer because Saccharomyces (most brewer's yeast) can't ferment it. But many bacteria, such as Lactobacillus, have no problems digesting it. That's why milk gets sour.
 
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Virginia_Ranger

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Awesome input, I have been curious about dropping the Bavarian Wheat DME but it is mainly in there for haze and some body. TBH its been my haze security blanket in case the hops or yeast don't haze it up enough. As for oats, I know there have been a lot of beerxperiments around them but I usually have them in at about 15-22% (steeping) and just have always liked the mouthfeel better, wort always seems to have creaminess to it visually as well before fermentation at least.
 
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