Add salts to Mash & Sparge water?

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triangulum33

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I've been modifying my water around the beer style as opposed to trying to match a certain regions water.

Should I be treating my mash AND sparge water? I have been fwiw.
 
Short answer, yeah. It depends on your circumstance. I treat my mash water and use RO for the sparge.

Chances are, if your mash needs treatment, your sparge does too.

I understand Bru’nwater deals with that. I don’t know myself, it won’t run on Quattro Pro and my laptop is full and I don’t have room for another spreadsheet program. I got a pH meter instead of a six year newer laptop.

I love the Hemingway quote.
 
The spreadsheet I use, EZ Water Calculator 2.0, gives adjustments for mash water and sparge water, with the instructions that the "sparge" salts are to be added to the boil, not the sparge. So why do they call 'em sparge salts? I don't know.

And for the record, I notice that your avatar doesn't match your name. Ha!
 
It's ideal to have a pH of less than 6 or so during sparging. Higher pH's tend to extract tannins from the grain which can cause off flavors. You can add lactic acid or phosphoric acid to your sparge water to adjust the pH down if you have highly alkaline water.
 
I feel that mashing and sparging water should generally be treated the same. The only difference is the amount of alkalinity in each water. The alkalinity in the mashing water should be keyed to the needs of the grist, while the sparging water should always have low alkalinity. In those cases where the mash water alkalinity had to be higher, I typically use pickling lime. The lime adds calcium to the mash. To achieve a similar calcium concentration in the sparging water, you would have to bump up the additions of calcium chloride and gypsum. Bru'n Water has the option of automatically adding those 2 minerals to make up for the calcium that was included in the mash water but is not allowed in the sparge water since it would increase the sparging water alkalinity. That feature increases the calcium chloride and gypsum in proportion to the mash water chemistry to keep the sulfate/chloride ratio the same in the sparging water.
 
Martin,

I read somewhere where A.J. suggested adding the calculated salt additions for both mash and sparge water altogether when you mash in. In brunwater, the additions for mash and sparge are calculated separately. Is it suggesting adding the salts separately to the mash and then to the sparge water? I am aware that some salts will only sink to the bottom. Additionally, is it acceptable to calculate salt additions only for the mash, then using only lactic acid to my sparge water to bring the pH from 9.25 to below 6?

I have soft water with the following ions. Ca=4, Mg=2.0, Sodium=11, Alkalinity=22, sulfate=8, Chloride=5, pH=9.25.

Many thanks!
 
In general, AJ's advice is sound for some beer styles. Any beer that needs a bit more alkalinity in the mashing water is where that advice falls apart. Then you need to treat each water component separately. A case in point is your water with its very low alkalinity. To mash the typically more acidic grist of a dark beer, this water needs more alkalinity. Since you never want elevated alkalinity in the sparging water, these components need differing treatment or additions. That is why the 'default' presentation in Bru'n Water shows separate treatment measures for the mash and sparge. Excepting for the alkalinity producing minerals, Bru'n Water does treat the mashing water and sparging water the same.

The only mineral that is not very soluble is chalk and I highly recommend avoiding its use. Lime or baking soda are better alternatives for adding alkalinity to the mash. All other minerals typically used in brewing are quite soluble. Gypsum looks like it doesn't dissolve instantly, but if you keep stirring it, it will fully dissolve.
 
I treat my mash and sparge with lactic for pH only. I then add salts to the kettle for adjusting the Sufate:Chloride ratio.
 
Thank you very much for the reply. I am new to brewing water chemistry and still trying to wrap my head around it. It seems from what Cluckk is suggesting, you can acidify the mash to hit certain pH then add all your mineral contributing salts in the kettle. I have always assumed that minerals are also important for enzymes activities during the mash. Or is the main goal is to get the pH into range which can be achieved through the use of acid?

I recently brewed a pale ale, I hit 5.32 versus estimated 5.4 by brun'water which was very close. But I hit 5.76 vs estimated 5.4 on my Tripel. I think it is because I use mostly pilsner malt in the grain bill with only 2% aromatic 20L. So, in the case like this where I do not want to add anymore minerals but still need to lower the mash pH further, can I just use lactic/phosphoric to lower the pH?

Many thanks again!

Existing Water Profile 4 2 11 8 5 27
Finished Water Profile 101 15 11 207 69 27
Recommended Ranges 50 to 150 5 to 30 0 to 150 0 to 350 0 to 100 as needed

Mash Parameters
Batch Volume (gal) 2.50 Hardness (ppm as CaCO3) 315 RA (ppm as CaCO3) -59
Estimated Mash pH 5.4 Alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3) 22 SO4/Cl Ratio 3.01

Additions Total Mash Water Vol (gal) 2.05 Total Sparge Water Vol (gal) 2.90
Mash Dilution Vol (gal) 0.00 Sparge Dilution Vol (gal) 0.00
Mash Water Additions Sparge Water Additions
Mineral (grams) (grams)
Gypsum (CaSO4) 2.1 2.9
Epsom Salt (MgSO4) 1.0 1.5
Canning Salt (NaCl) 0.0 0.0
Baking Soda (NaHCO3) 0.0 Not Recommended
Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) 1.0 1.5
Chalk (CaCO3) 0.0 Not Recommended
Pickling Lime (Ca(OH)2) 0.0 Not Recommended
Magnesium Chloride (MgCl2) 0.0 0.0
Acid (mL) (mL)
Lactic 88.00 % 0.0 0.4
 
I have a noobs question about ph levels...the water we are using (local spring water) has a ph pf 8-8.5 i think which seems incredibly high. Should we be adding salts to lower the ph or will simply boiling the sparge water solve any flavor issues? We seem to consistently have a slightly astringent, kind of metallic tastes in our beers that i thought could be caused by ph levels.
 
I have a noobs question about ph levels...the water we are using (local spring water) has a ph pf 8-8.5 i think which seems incredibly high. Should we be adding salts to lower the ph or will simply boiling the sparge water solve any flavor issues? We seem to consistently have a slightly astringent, kind of metallic tastes in our beers that i thought could be caused by ph levels.

No. The pH of my water is 9. That doesn't matter. What matters is the amount of other things in the water that would buffer the pH change in the mash.

Mash pH is the important thing here. If you have an astringent taste in the beer, it could be a high carbonate/bicarbonate level as an example, or a high mash pH, or a high sparge pH. Or something else.

I suggest sending a water sample to Ward Lab and for $16.50, you get a full report of what is in your water. That's a great place to start.

Or, make one batch with 100% reverse osmosis water from the big "water machines" at the grocery stores and places like Wal-Mart. If the flavor is fixed, then you know water was the issue.
 
If all the calcium salts go in the mash water (eg 200ppm) then you get a better mash and require less acid. If you were to split the calcium between the mash and sparge water you’d need acid in the mash, have a lower quality mash (less proteins and oxalates precipitated) and some calcium would be left behind in the sparge water that didn’t make it all the way through the grains. Seems to me all the calcium salts in the mash is the better approach.
 
If all the calcium salts go in the mash water (eg 200ppm) then you get a better mash and require less acid. If you were to split the calcium between the mash and sparge water you’d need acid in the mash, have a lower quality mash (less proteins and oxalates precipitated) and some calcium would be left behind in the sparge water that didn’t make it all the way through the grains. Seems to me all the calcium salts in the mash is the better approach.

Yes, adding all calcium and magnesium salts does reduce the amount of acid that might be needed in the mashing water. But that approach doesn't solve the problem of using water with high alkalinity for sparging water. Unless you're using RO or distilled water for brewing, its likely that adding acid to sparging water (and maybe mashing water) is required.

Splitting the mineral additions between the mashing and sparging water does not necessarily mean that proteins and oxalates will be insufficiently precipitated. If the mashing water has something like 40 or 50 ppm calcium, its likely that those reactions will be sufficient.
 
Ran an experiment to compare the effect different levels of mash Ca, 6ppm, 49ppm and 367ppm has on post boil wort taste and appearance.

Tap water (from water report):
CaMgNaClSOHCO
6144820

250g Crisp Clear Choice Pale Malt
750ml mash water
2L sparge water
40min mash, sparged using sieve (no vorlauf), 10m boil
10m cool (no chiller)
ppm calculations via Brewfather.

A. No salts
IMG_0789 2.jpeg

Post sparge colour look dull yellow and had brown foam and tasted harsh.
IMG_0791.jpeg

Post boil Wort tasted harsh and foam was darker brown. It's opaque, what looks like the base of the pot is a shadow.


B. 0.05g Gypsum. 0.05g Calcium Chloride
Mash
CaMgNaClSOHCO
4914465620
Wort
CaMgNaClSOHCO
1714162020

post sparge photo missing but looked similar to C (no brown foam).

IMG_0818.jpeg

Post boil looks slightly bright, e.g. can see a tiny bit of metal shine coming through. No hot break. Tasted slightly harsh but foam wasn't brown (same at preboil).

C. 0.5g Gypsum. 0.5g Calcium Chloride
Mash
CaMgNaClSOHCO
3671435040620
Wort
CaMgNaClSOHCO
99149411120


IMG_0789.jpeg

Post sparge was nice cloudy yellow with white foam.

IMG_0791 2.jpeg


Wort tasted fresh and looked very bright. White foam. Visible hot break.

Conclusion
C looks and tasted best. Maybe B just needed a touch more Ca to fix its harsh taste since it didn't have the brown foam problem. It would be interesting to know what level of Ca gives the dramatic protein precipitation (or hot break?) post boil.

Regarding pH: Sorry this is not scientific! A and C had no pH adjustment and wasn't measured. B mash pH was a bit high at 5.8 so a drop of lactic was added which lowered it to 5.4, a microscopic amount of lactic was added to B's sparge taking it from 8 to 5. B post boil was 5.2.

Future Work
I could run the experiment again with say 200ppm Ca in mash water if anyone is interested to see how it compares to C. That would be 0.27g each of Gypsum, CaCl.

Also if we are supposed to have 50ppm in both the mash and sparge water then that would actually be 0.05g (each salt) in mash water and 0.17g (each salt) in the sparge water. It would be interesting to see what the post boil wort compares to B.
 
Last edited:
FWIW, hot and cold break are known to increase with lower mash/wort pH, which would be expected with higher calcium concentrations in the mash.
 
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