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Add minerals to sparge or kettle

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olotti

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So ive already done my mash mineral additions and lactic acid addition. Im now heating the sparge water. Add my second rd of minerals to the sparge water or wait to collect pbv, get it up to heat and past the hot break and then add the other minerals? I’ve always added them to the sparge water just wondered what the effect would be if any adding them to the kettle instead. It’s a neipa so I’ll be adding, gypsum, Epsom, canning salt and cal chloride and I’ve already worked out the amounts as i Use bru’n water religiously.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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More minerals will get through to the final beer if you add them to the kettle. As to whether that will be beneficial or detrimental, you are free to experiment and give us your valued opinion thereby.
 
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olotti

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More minerals will get through to the final beer if you add them to the kettle. As to whether that will be beneficial or departmental, you are free to experiment and give us your valued opinion thereby.
Ok well I just added them into the kettle. Might as well try it out.
 
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olotti

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How does Bru'n Water refer to the second round of additions? sparge water additions? kettle additions? boil additions?
Oh no. Lol. Yeah I’m bru’n water their calculated in as sparge additions. Great. Ugh
 

eric19312

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I fly sparge to volume and grain bed is still wet when I'm done, anywhere from 1-3 gallons of "final" runnings get left behind. So my sparge salts all go into the brew kettle for flavor contribution.
 
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olotti

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It's likely the beer you are making will come out just fine.
Gosh I hope so. We’ll find out in a week or so when I keg it. I’m using hornidal kviek and it chews through these latest ipas I’ve made with it.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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It’s a neipa so I’ll be adding, gypsum, Epsom, canning salt and cal chloride and I’ve already worked out the amounts as i Use bru’n water religiously.
Careful. Do you know the water content (hydration state) of your calcium chloride? What mystical transcendence are you wishing for by such religious adherence to what are in the end only the water profile guesses of a mere man? Personally I place little faith in what I will refer to as 'canned' water profiles. And particularly less so if they ask me to add alkalinity (or bicarbonate, which is a related measure). And zero if they suggest adding calcium carbonate. If no one can tell you where you will end up if you add minerals to the kettle vs. the sparge vs. the mash, how can you get where you mystically intend to go? To get where you want to go, you must first know where you are. But due to many factors it is impossible to know where you are at any juncture post deionized water as to minerals. One factor is the CaCl2 hydration state dilemma. Another is the ppm dilemma as it relates to mash thickness, whereby ppm (mg/L) conveys extremely deceptive information that can only be resolved via envisioning it as to mEq's as opposed to ppm's. And those are merely two of what are in reality a complex multitude of dilemmas that science can only scratch the surface of. But I do highly commend you for using the proper terminology (I.E., 'religion') in reference to using 'water profile' guidance.
 
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olotti

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Careful. Do you know the water content (hydration state) of your calcium chloride? What mystical transcendence are you wishing for by such religious adherence to what are in the end only the water profile guesses of a mere man? Personally I place little faith in what I will refer to as 'canned' water profiles. And particularly less so if they ask me to add alkalinity (or bicarbonate, which is a related measure). And zero if they suggest adding calcium carbonate. If no one can tell you where you will end up if you add minerals to the kettle vs. the sparge vs. the mash, how can you get where you mystically intend to go? To get where you want to go, you must first know where you are. But due to many factors it is impossible to know where you are at any juncture post deionized water as to minerals. One factor is the CaCl2 hydration state dilemma. Another is the ppm dilemma as it relates to mash thickness, whereby ppm (mg/L) conveys extremely deceptive information that can only be resolved via envisioning it as to mEq's as opposed to ppm's. And those are merely two of what are in reality a complex multitude of dilemmas that science can only scratch the surface of. But I do highly commend you for using the proper terminology (I.E., 'religion') in reference to using 'water profile' guidance.
Whoa. That’s quite the reply. I thank u for the insight. I use distilled water and have that plugged into bru’n water as my base and build from there so basically since I’ve settled on grains for my neipas I just pull up an old recipe tweak the amounts of grain and than adjust the mineral additions if I want more 1:1 sulfate to chloride , 2:1 etc. but I hear ya if their programmed in as mash and sparge additions I guess I’m not sure what diff using the sparge additions as kettle additions will do. I posted the question right before I stated my brew day and looked up old posts with the same subject and enough people said they added them in the kettle instead so I figured I’d try it. But idk their process, numbers etc as to how it fits into my process.
 

day_trippr

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I've always treated my strike and sparge water the same wrt salts, using the supporter version of Bru'n Water.
The only difference is the acid - as I use RO water it only takes a half milliliter of 25% PA to drop the sparge water concoction (salts and acid) under pH 5.2, while the strike water acid addition has to account for the mash and lighter color styles like pales/ipas/neipas typically takes 15ml of PA to get to a room temp pH of 5.3...

Cheers!
 
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olotti

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Using bru’n water I used 1.1ml of LA to get my ph to 5.3
 

Brewbuzzard

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I've been giving some serious thought to this topic lately. I've been using RO water for some time now. I got tired of carrying all those large carboys from the truck to the brewery so I installed an RO system. I use Beersmith, to treat my mash, and sparge water. I read an article by Gordon Strong where he also adjusts the finished beer to taste using minerals. I haven't tried his method but it has merit.

As to not adjusting the sparge water, I worry this could increase the pH of the mash and decrease the efficiency. I keep an eye on the gravity and pH as I collect to keep tannins out of my finished beer.

Water chemistry is so complicated but very important to our final product. I have a hard time getting my head around it. HELP!
 

VikeMan

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As to not adjusting the sparge water, I worry this could increase the pH of the mash and decrease the efficiency. I keep an eye on the gravity and pH as I collect to keep tannins out of my finished beer.
Nothing you add (or don't add) to your sparge water (except for more water) will change your mash efficiency. Adding acid (if needed) does help keep the runoff pH low (but again, that doesn't affect efficiency).

BTW, you can't eliminate tannins in your finished beer. But you can minimize them. I mention that because you said "keep tannins out."
 

Brewbuzzard

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Nothing you add (or don't add) to your sparge water (except for more water) will change your mash efficiency. Adding acid (if needed) does help keep the runoff pH low (but again, that doesn't affect efficiency).

BTW, you can't eliminate tannins in your finished beer. But you can minimize them. I mention that because you said "keep tannins out."
Yeah I know they're in there but as long as my beer isn't astringent I'm happy.
 

t^3

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@BrewnWKopperKat Thanks for that link! That is what I have been doing for my water, RO water from the machine at the grocery store, CaCL2, gypsum and Acidulated malt. I read all the water threads thinking I should be doing more, always trying to improve, maybe I am ok where I am. Mostly I brew Pale Ales and NEIPAs. Using BIAB process.
 

JohnDBrewer

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If I'm adding anything I add to the sparge. My question is if I'm sparging with 5 gal, my system actually needs 10 to accurately see 5 gal in the kettle (my site glass does not go much below 5g). On the water spreadsheets it shows sparging with 5gal. Should I double all the sparge additions to reflect the actual volume in my HLT?
 

Silver_Is_Money

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BTW, you can't eliminate tannins in your finished beer. But you can minimize them. I mention that because you said "keep tannins out."
Various maltsters are starting to offer huskless barley malt.
 

VikeMan

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Various maltsters are starting to offer huskless barley malt.
I hadn't been aware of that. Is it any major producers or boutique guys? I hope it's the latter, or else we're headed for an increase in "stuck mash" posts, assuming base malts are among the (new) huskless malts.

But even with if we used all de-husked malts, beer would still have tannins (from hops). I actually don't think most beers would feel right without them.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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One is Briess' new Synergy Select Pilsen malt, which can now be purchased either way, with or without husks. I'm pretty sure I also fell across another huskless base malt somewhere, but I can't recall where.
 

Tony Palmer

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I believe salt addition is best made to mash and kettle, not sparge water. The important thing with sparge water is to get the pH right 7-7.2. It's getting the Sulphate/Chloride balance right too. I am also a big believer in using Calcium Chloride to increase perceived sweetness as desired.
 

VikeMan

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I believe salt addition is best made to mash and kettle, not sparge water. The important thing with sparge water is to get the pH right 7-7.2.
Unless the sparge water has little or no buffering capacity (like distilled or RO water), the pH should ideally be much lower than that. Otherwise, you risk extraction of excess tannins.
 

Vale71

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Various maltsters are starting to offer huskless barley malt.
There's still tannins in the kernel. Besides that, it's pre-ground malt so it will be hopelessly oxidized by the time you get your hands on it so any other concern can fly out the window.

The way to have tannin free beer is with tannin-free malt made from tannin-free barley and critical CO2 hop extract. Some commercial breweries are switching to that (most of them use hop extract anyway) mostly to prevent chill haze.

I think for homebrewed, unfiltered beer that would be going overboard by a long margin...
 

eric19312

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There's still tannins in the kernel. Besides that, it's pre-ground malt so it will be hopelessly oxidized by the time you get your hands on it so any other concern can fly out the window.

The way to have tannin free beer is with tannin-free malt made from tannin-free barley and critical CO2 hop extract. Some commercial breweries are switching to that (most of them use hop extract anyway) mostly to prevent chill haze.

I think for homebrewed, unfiltered beer that would be going overboard by a long margin...
I'm just about finished with 4th sack of Briess MatlGems Pilsner and my experience does not agree with this huskless barley grain being "hopelessly oxidized". It is really well packaged and once opened I kept it in homer buckets with gamma lids. Second batch from fourth bag was as good as the first about 5 months of brewing and all were used in beers that were about 95% base malt. None were hopelessly oxidized and I wish I could get that original deal I got on this grain.

I know you (@Vale71) pay attention to oxidation and may be all the way in with low oxygen brewing. I'm not terribly concerned about HSA but I do think I've followed your recommendations on cold side about things like silicone gaskets on fermentors and PVC tubing for gas and beer lines in draft systems so this comment piqued my interest. I did a quick search for oxygen permeability of barley husk and didn't find any useful results.
 

Vale71

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Apologies if that sounded a bit too dramatic. You shouldn't expect oxidation of the crushed malt to manifest itself in the same terms as oxidation of the finished beer. The main issue is oxidation of the lipids.
BTW the whole kernel is not protected by the husks which are already not intact as they are pierced by the sprout during germination but by the aleurone layer which remains intact until the grain is actually milled. This is why huskless malt such as wheat malt is still protected until it is milled just as well as barley malt.
 
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