Acidulated Malt

[GiraffeBrew]

Can you give me a good reason why I shouldn't use as much as 30% Acidulated Malt in my mash?? And if you say 'No' with the reason being that it will 'gum-up' my mash, would rice hulls help??

 

[Yooper]

Can you give me a good reason why I shouldn't use as much as 30% Acidulated Malt in my mash?? And if you say 'No' with the reason being that it will 'gum-up' my mash, would rice hulls help??

Besides being incredibly sour? I mean, it'll taste like vinegar. And the mash pH would be in the 3.2 range. Maybe lower.

I assume you're trying to make a sour mash?

 

[GiraffeBrew]

Vinegar?? Really??

 

[GuldTuborg]

Vinegar?? Really??

It's called Acidulated Malt for a reason, you know. Let me turn the question around and ask you this: why do you want to use so much?

 

[bh10]

Vinegar?? Really??

Na, I did a 100% Acidulated Malt SMaSh with Simcoe. It was awesome. :cross:

 

[asterix404]

There is a great reason, the enzymes won't work to convert your sugar in a mash with such a low PH, or at least they will work very slowly. I suppose the correct question to ask is why you would want to use 30% in your ph? Are you having a PH problem? Would this be fixed by 1 to 2% to get the PH down a few 10ths of a point?

 

[remilard]

It wouldn't taste like vinegar per se as the acid is not acetic. It would likely be nearly as sour as vinegar. Maybe along the lines of a very sour yogurt.

Also conversion will be poor. If you must do it, mash the other 70% of the malt completely prior to adding the sauermalz.

The best reason not to do this is that there are better ways to make sour beers.

 

[mhenry41h]

I would definitely avoid this. I like using acidulated malt but I couldn't ever imagine going over 12%(and that would be a pretty extreme beer) I think Ithaca uses something like 12-15% in their Brute but I've never heard of going higher...not sure why you'd want to??

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[JLem]

I would definitely avoid this. I like using acidulated malt but I couldn't ever imagine going over 12%(and that would be a pretty extreme beer) I think Ithaca uses something like 12-15% in their Brute but I've never heard of going higher...not sure why you'd want to??

[email protected]

I brewed a beer with 13% acid malt - in an attempt to mimic something like Brute. While it was sour, I was surprised that it wasn't more so. I had no problem with conversion or fermentation. Not sure what would happen using 30%, but it might be something worth experimenting with.

 

[johngault007]

Maybe it's just my personal taste, but I used somewhere around 8% in a Gose and it was almost too much for me. But agreed, it shouldn't be there for the full mash. I think I dropped it in the last 15 minutes of a 60 minute mash.

 

[mhenry41h]

I brewed a beer with 13% acid malt - in an attempt to mimic something like Brute. While it was sour, I was surprised that it wasn't more so. I had no problem with conversion or fermentation. Not sure what would happen using 30%, but it might be something worth experimenting with.

How close to Brute did you get? God that's a great beer.

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[JLem]

How close to Brute did you get? God that's a great beer.

[email protected]

It's still aging in secondary with the Brett, so the short answer is "I don't know".

The longer answer is that "I won't know" because I ended up throwing my own spin on it by using a wine yeast as my primary strain then added a bunch of local cranberries and some wine-soaked oak cubes to secondary. My plan was to have this thing bottles already so it would be ready for Thanksgiving, but time has gotten away from me and, besides, I'm not convinced the Brett is done. All my samples so far have tasted really good, and I think my base beer recipe is pretty close to what Ithaca uses for Brute (I came up with it after listening to the head brewer on the Brewing Network and getting some info off their website).

If you're curious about my recipe/process you can find details at http://www.BrewByBrew.com (this brew is called "Vaccinium")

 

[GiraffeBrew]

Well my reason for asking is that I do a lot of 'what if' type of grist formulations making 2gal batches and fementing them out just to see what comes of it. I normally use two constants in these. Those constants are Chico yeast and Cascade hops. Sometimes you stumble upon a grist that is awesome. Other times you think to yourself 'Man, I wouldn't give this to the Dog!' While other times you're left standing there scratching your head while you think for a moment to try and figure out where things went wrong. It really is a lot of fun! And, you're only limited by your own imagination! Don't throw away your John Palmer book, but think outside of your cubicle for a moment.

Long legs means more room for beer!

 

[Yooper]

Well my reason for asking is that I do a lot of 'what if' type of grist formulations making 2gal batches and fementing them out just to see what comes of it. I normally use two constants in these. Those constants are Chico yeast and Cascade hops. Sometimes you stumble upon a grist that is awesome. Other times you think to yourself 'Man, I wouldn't give this to the Dog!' While other times you're left standing there scratching your head while you think for a moment to try and figure out where things went wrong. It really is a lot of fun! And, you're only limited by your own imagination! Don't throw away your John Palmer book, but think outside of your cubicle for a moment.

Long legs means more room for beer!

Well, I'm all for experimentation. But I can tell you unequivocally that a grain bill with 30% acid malt will a. not convert and b. taste beyond bad. The pH will be lower than the pH of vinegar but probably not as pleasant tasting as vinegar.

 

[JLem]

Well, I'm all for experimentation. But I can tell you unequivocally that a grain bill with 30% acid malt will a. not convert and b. taste beyond bad. The pH will be lower than the pH of vinegar but probably not as pleasant tasting as vinegar.

Yoop - out of curiosity, what is the pH of most wine musts? (Just thinking about fermentation here and not conversion).

Also, I would think the grains might have enough buffering capacity that even 30% acid malt might not lower the pH outside of the workable range of the amylase enzymes. No idea of course - I never measured the pH of my batch with 13%.

 

[asterix404]

So the thing to remember about acidulated malt is that you kill all of the lacto bacteria in the boil so it's not there. You want to use it to lower your PH. If you want a sour beer, use lacto in the primary or secondary.

 

[JLem]

So the thing to remember about acidulated malt is that you kill all of the lacto bacteria in the boil so it's not there. You want to use it to lower your PH. If you want a sour beer, use lacto in the primary or secondary.

Well, the acidulated malt is coated with lactic acid, not just lacto (which is found pretty much on all malt), so it will lower the pH of the beer even in the absence of lacto activity. Ithaca beer company uses only acidulated malt in the mash to attain their sourness - no lacto or pedio during fermentation. They use brett, which may give some sourness, but really not that much. Likewise, my 13% acid malt batch was sour (even before I added cranberries) just from using the acid malt in the mash. Adding lacto during fermentation will potentially give you more sourness (and I've heard people say a more complex, rounded sourness), but enough acid malt will make a sour beer.

 

[asterix404]

Thanks for that JLem. I don't see however the difference between adding acidulated malt during the mash or lactic acid in the primary or secondary for the same lactic effect. I read in several books that the primary reason was not for flavor impact but getting your ph to 5.2-5.8 if you were having problems doing that anyway.

I actually bought some and then took a ph reading and all of my beers hit about 5.4 so I didn't touch the mash profile at all. The sours I have made were done using lacto and brett with a sacc base. I didn't know that it would impart a strong flavor or that it was covered in lacto. I thought that the bacteria was the only thing covering the mash. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[nppeders]

This is an old thread but I thought I could give a little bit on an update. I did an Ithaca Brute clone although I've never actually had the original. I used 23% Acid Malt and got my normal 70% efficiency from that mash. So, it didn't effect my mash efficiency at all.

Also, it's been in the carboy since early Feb. 2012 and I took a PH reading (a few days ago) and it was at 3.8 PH. Embrace the Funk measured the actual Ithaca Brute to be 3.6 PH..... so..... either Ithaca is using a more powerful Sourmalt, or they also have some bacteria in their barrels. 23% will get you cose, but 30% would get you closer!

Here was my process on an Ithaca Brute clone. Ithaca Brute Clone

In hind site I would add more Corn in the future to make it more like Ithaca Brute, but either way...this tastes fantastic in the carboy right now and I'm probably going to bottle it and drink sense I doubt that PH will get lower at this point without adding Pedio/Lacto.

 

[helibrewer]

Yoop - out of curiosity, what is the pH of most wine musts? (Just thinking about fermentation here and not conversion).

Also, I would think the grains might have enough buffering capacity that even 30% acid malt might not lower the pH outside of the workable range of the amylase enzymes. No idea of course - I never measured the pH of my batch with 13%.

Wine must is 3.4-3.6 pH with most acidity from Malic and Tartaric acids. One deacidifying technique for wine is Malolactic fermentation where bacteria is used to convert Malic Acid to Lactic Acid.

I know grain is essentially a proton donor and acidifies mash but I'm not sure I would consider it a buffer...it provides protons up to a certain volume of water then the alkalinity will increase as that supply is exhausted.

 

[VladOfTrub]

The 5-10 percent deal depends on the mineral content of the water. The Carbonates are the main buffer, not so much the grain. The higher the Carbonates, more sauer malz is needed. I learned, that when making a tri-decoction Pilsner, with very soft water. It takes 1.5-2 lbs sauer malz to lower the mash pH in 20-25 lbs of Pils malt to 5.2-5.3. Using 1.5qt/lb in the main mash. It also takes about 1.5-2 hours, with the entire mash at 100 degrees, with the help of the natural lacto in the grain, to get it there. Without the sauer malz, using the same water profile, temp, grain and time. The natural lacto will only lower the pH to 5.6-5.8. Once the main mash is at 5.2-5.3. I fire the mash tun to get to a protein rest. The temp kills the natural lacto-bugs. The sauer malz won't drop the pH anymore. The lactic is washed out of it. The Pilsner when aged properly will have no sour twang to it. I'm not sure why sauer malz would be used except for making Pilsner or light color lagers, using the decoction method. Where attention to pH is needed when boiling the mash, during sparging, and for wort reduction. I don't make ale, or sour beer, so, I have absolutely no idea how sauer malz works with that kind of thing. From what I read on the forum, if a sour beer is desired. Make a beer using poor sanitization and when it goes bad in the spackling bucket, RDWHAHB, age it out, because aging cures everything and then, call it a Belgian sour. Just kidding...The brewer saying he used 100 percent sauer malz may have been using the wort to fill batteries.... Low pH in wine autolizes the yeast, that's why it's racked so many times. However, drink a bottle of Dom or Moet champagne. The desired taste comes from autolization. I've made lots of crappy wine. Right now I have 18 gallons of a blend of Cab Sauv/Merlot started early March with juice from Chile. It probably will be crappy, too. I don't have any wine glasses anymore. The ex ran amuck one night, with a banana machete, smashing them. Mason jars work the same. They add a certain Feng Shui.

 

[rolewiii]

This is a really great thread - please accept my apologies for raising the dead. I'd like to do an update here, since there seems to have been quite a bit of disagreement. Why not add some case studies?

In CNY we have alkaline drinking water sourced from a combination of Lake Ontario and Otisco Lake. Alkaline enough that whatever %age sauermaltz that was in the AHB Sour Ginger Peach Ale delivered absolutely no sour.

So tomorrow I am going to brew a "winter" wheat beer with the following grains:

57% White Wheat
24% Moravian Munich
10% Light Munich
10% Acidulated Malt

I ate a pinch of it mixing the grains about an hour ago. It is indeed sour.

We'll see where we are tomorrow after the wort has chilled, and in a few or so when secondary fermentation is complete.

 

[boicutt]

I made a similar recipe recently with some late citra hops, and some tea added to it. The tea balanced it out I find. But drink it green, and make sure to put it in a cool place so it doesnt continue to condition. After about a month or so at room temp in bottles, tartness in it reslly came out and was reaching an unpleasant place.