A simple HERMS

[Scooby_Brew]

I'm thinking of upgrading my system into a simple HERMS. Basically I want to use my immersion chiller as a heat exchanger for recirculating the wort during the mash and then use it as a chiller during the cooling proces.
So basically this system would include your basic AG setup (a cooler MLT, BK, IC) plus a pump.
Has anyone done that? I can't find anything similar on here.

 

[Walker]

this is funny. I am sitting here drawing up plans for the same sort of idea and thinking about it.

I want to drill holes and install the IC into my keggle for use as the exchanger during the mash and the chiller at the end.

My main thoughts (at the moment) are how efficient the exchanger would be. I don't want to lengthen the brew day.

I was also thinking about going electric and installing a heating element in the kettle instead of using a propane burner.

 

[lamarguy]

You've described a brutus 20 design. The setup is simple but it's effectively batch sparging so you'll lose some efficiency points (compared to fly sparging).

 

[Walker]

I already batch-sparge, so I am not concerned about that.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

I do. Put male qd's on HLT, MLT, IC, and BK and made some hoses with female qd's. Fill HLT with sparge water, MLT with Mash water. Heat HLT to mash temp while circulating mash water. When temp reaches strike, dough in and check MLT temp. I keep a thermo in both HLT and MLT. , If I'm shooting for 152 mash, I'll dough in 157ish and the temps between the dropped mash and the hlt will equalize around my desired mash temp within a minute or two.
At mash out, I'll stop the recirc, open the burner WFO until the HLT (sparge) water is ~170, then begin to recirc again for mash out. When MLT reaches 170 for a few minutes, I switch hoses and pump from MLT to BK. Light BK when wort is drained from MLT, and reconfigure for batch sparge.
for batch sparge, pump from HLT to MLT to desired sparge volume. begin recirculate from MLT through pump back to MLT bypassing IC until wort is clear. Switch hoses to pump again from MLT to BK.

It has saved me about 25 min on my brew day, bumped my eff numbers ~8 pts, and the beer is CRYSTAL clear going into the BK

 

[lamarguy]

I already batch-sparge, so I am not concerned about that.

Yes, but do you add the sparge water to the first wort/runnings? Most of the brutus 20 designs I've seen do just that. So, their efficiency is actually lower than batch sparging. Just something to consider.

Here is a brutus 20 review from 2007:

I usually get ~ 65% effeciency. Today I got 58% efficiency, but I was also 1/2 gal short, and sometimes I'm a little lower on wheat beers anyway. More total sparge water might have helped a little.

The overall work involved was slightly less than batch sparging. Once the sparge started, you just let it recirculate until you're done.

It required slightly more time vs batch sparging, maybe an extra 10-20 mins, but was still less than or equal to fly sparging.

Overall, I think this is a fairly simple, sound, viable process. For those who may be considering a stand with a small footprint, this may be something you want to think about.

 

[Walker]

I do. Put male qd's on HLT, MLT, IC, and BK and made some hoses with female qd's. Fill HLT with sparge water, MLT with Mash water. Heat HLT to mash temp while circulating mash water. When temp reaches strike, dough in and check MLT temp. I keep a thermo in both HLT and MLT. , If I'm shooting for 152 mash, I'll dough in 157ish and the temps between the dropped mash and the hlt will equalize around my desired mash temp within a minute or two.
At mash out, I'll stop the recirc, open the burner WFO until the HLT (sparge) water is ~170, then begin to recirc again for mash out. When MLT reaches 170 for a few minutes, I switch hoses and pump from MLT to BK. Light BK when wort is drained from MLT, and reconfigure for batch sparge.
for batch sparge, pump from HLT to MLT to desired sparge volume. begin recirculate from MLT through pump back to MLT bypassing IC until wort is clear. Switch hoses to pump again from MLT to BK.

It has saved me about 25 min on my brew day, bumped my eff numbers ~8 pts, and the beer is CRYSTAL clear going into the BK

I would love to get away with just two vessels (no dedicated HLT), but that requires a no-sparge and I don't want to do that.

 

[Walker]

Yes, but do you add the sparge water to the first wort/runnings? Most of the brutus 20 designs I've seen do just that. So, their efficiency is actually lower than batch sparging. Just something to consider.

Here is a brutus 20 review from 2007:

Right, I do "normal" batch sparge, where the sparge makes its own second runnings.

 

[Layne]

This is very interesting to me!
I'm almost finished my Backyard Cookshack/brewpub, then it will be time to build or buy some sort of brew system instead of my pieces parts brew day.

 

[Scooby_Brew]

You've described a brutus 20 design. The setup is simple but it's effectively batch sparging so you'll lose some efficiency points (compared to fly sparging).

Actualy I'm thinking of fly sparging. I want to use the same manifolds I use for fly sparging now and use them for recirculating the wort during the mash.
I want it to work this way:

1. Heat up the strike water, dough in, etc. All that you do the "old" AG way, no changes there.

2. Heat up some heat-exchange water in your BK. Heat it up to your desired mash temp., 152 for example. This water you will later use for sparging.

3. Start recirculating the wort from the mash tun using your immersion chiller sitting in the BK. Wort comes out from the MLT through a manifold (or whatever you use), goes through the pump, then through the IC sitting in the BK, then back to the MLT through the fly-sparge manifold.

4. Sparging: use the heat-exchange water you used in mashing. Pump it to the fly-sparge manifold. The ready wort goes down into a fermenting bucket.

5. Boil your wort, use your IC for cooling it down, etc, etc.




Mashing w/heat exchange through an IC:

Sparging:

 

[cowgo]

Actualy I'm thinking of fly sparging. I want to use the same manifolds I use for fly sparging now and use them for recerculating the wort during the mash.
I want it to work this way:

1. Heat up the strike water, dough in, etc. All that you do the "old" AG way, no changes there.

2. Heat up some heat-exchange water in your BK. Heat it up to your desired mash temp., 152 for example. This water you will later use for sparging.

3. Start recirculating the wort from the mash using your immersion chiller sitting in the BK. Wort comes out from the MLT through a manifold (or whatever you use), goes through the pump, then through the IC sitting in the BK, then back to the MLT through the fly-sparge manifold.

4. Sparging: use the heat-exchange water you used in mashing. Pump it to the fly-sparge manifold. The ready wort goes down into a fermenting bucket.

5. Boil your wort, use your IC for cooling it down, etc, etc.




Mashing w/heat exchange through an IC:

Sparging:

I'm liking this. 2 vessels, one pump, one heat source. The Brutus 20 is a cool system but I wanted an electric system and can't get an element under the false bottom.

So you collect the sparge wort in the fermenting bucket and then dump it back into the BK?

Is a March pump strong enough to pull through the MLT, push up through the IC and back to the MLT?

 

[The Pol]

I'm liking this. 2 vessels, one pump, one heat source. The Brutus 20 is a cool system but I wanted an electric system and can't get an element under the false bottom.

So you collect the sparge wort in the fermenting bucket and then dump it back into the BK?

Is a March pump strong enough to pull through the MLT, push up through the IC and back to the MLT?

The March technically does not pull anything, as it is not self priming. But it will easily pussh through the IC and to the MLT, I have done this many times in closed circuit cooling.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

I would love to get away with just two vessels (no dedicated HLT), but that requires a no-sparge and I don't want to do that.

It is a trade off. If you're using your BK to hold the heat exchange/sparge water, there's no way to use only two vessels( or no config. that my pea sized brain can think of)
I already had all three vessels, so, for me, it was just a matter of a few reconfigurations.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

Actualy I'm thinking of fly sparging. I want to use the same manifolds I use for fly sparging now and use them for recirculating the wort during the mash.
I want it to work this way:

1. Heat up the strike water, dough in, etc. All that you do the "old" AG way, no changes there.

2. Heat up some heat-exchange water in your BK. Heat it up to your desired mash temp., 152 for example. This water you will later use for sparging.

3. Start recirculating the wort from the mash tun using your immersion chiller sitting in the BK. Wort comes out from the MLT through a manifold (or whatever you use), goes through the pump, then through the IC sitting in the BK, then back to the MLT through the fly-sparge manifold.

4. Sparging: use the heat-exchange water you used in mashing. Pump it to the fly-sparge manifold. The ready wort goes down into a fermenting bucket.

5. Boil your wort, use your IC for cooling it down, etc, etc.




Mashing w/heat exchange through an IC:

Sparging:

So during mash, you're using the pump to recirc, but during fly sparge, MLT drains via gravity?

 

[Scooby_Brew]

So during mash, you're using the pump to recirc, but during fly sparge, MLT drains via gravity?

Yep, that's the plan.

 

[Jud]

This is what I have been looking for!!! I want to up grade and go electric! So who has built this? I would love to see one. Thanks again guys!!!

 

[Bobby_M]

It's not "true" 2-vessel brewing if you collect wort into a bucket. It's just that the 3rd vessel is temporary and not built into the system. The only downside to this idea is that you have to wait until the entire sparge is done before you can start heating the wort to boil, not to mention all the heat you'll lose while it's sitting around. The other alternative is to move the sparge to a cooler that you prop on top of the MLT so that you're pumping wort to the BK and gravity draining the sparge. That way, you can flame-on the wort immediately and shave an easy 35-40 minutes off your brew day.

 

[PTisch]

What about putting a heat stick into the fermenter while it is filling? Making sure that the stick is off the bottom of the bucket of course.

 

[Bobby_M]

You could, but now you're adding a temporary heat source to a temporary vessel getting even further away from the idea of a "simple" two vessel "system". Why not build the 3rd vessel into the system?

 

[PTisch]

Why? I don't know. I was just solving the heat loss problem in the collection vessel. I didn't think it through much farther than that.

 

[Jud]

Ok so if you have your wort drained into your bucket, and your sparge water transferred over to your mash tun. Then pour your wort into the BK I don't think there would be a great lose of heat. Think I can live with this for now at least. It is a improvement for my system.

Why not just add a 3rd kettle. That is an easy one for me. My brew table was given to me. It is very similar to the Little Giant Stock Picking Truck, just better tires and heavier built. I can only fit 2 kettles on top of it, and all of my brew stuff goes on the bottom shelf.

 

[HappyValley]

What you guys are describing is basically my setup: One burner under BK, cooler MLT, and cooler HLT to briefly hold sparge water while collecting first runnings in BK. I'm thinking about adding a HERMS recirculation during mash rest in order to keep my mash temps spot on, but I can't help wondering if it isn't easier just to improve the insulation of the MLT somehow in order to keep the temp super constant? HERMS makes a lot of sense when your MLT isn't perfectly insulated. But an Xtreme cooler? How much temp are you folks losing in your coolers during your mash rests? (I seem to lose about 1-2 degrees but need to conduct more careful tests)

 

[HappyValley]

Just to follow up on this - I brewed today with my newly installed thermometer in my MLT. Lost 4-5 degrees in the MLT during a 75 minute mash. I'm starting to see the benefit of HERMS!

 

[Walker]

Just to follow up on this - I brewed today with my newly installed thermometer in my MLT. Lost 4-5 degrees in the MLT during a 75 minute mash. I'm starting to see the benefit of HERMS!

4-5*F seems excessive. If I avoid opening my cooler, I lose just a couple of degrees during a 60-70 minute mash.

Where is your thermometer installed in your TUN? I put a thermowell in mine so that I could monitor temps without opening the thing, but I made the mistake of installing the thing too high up the wall of the MLT. For a 5 gallon batch, my probe is monitoring the liquid above the grain bed rather than the temp if the grain bed directly. This results in my thermometer reading temps that are about 5*F lower than the actual mash temp.

If I shake the cooler up then the temp on the thermometer rises and gives me a better reading, but as the grain settles back down below the probe, the temp on the display starts to fall.

Dumb mistake on my part with the location of the probe. It does read accurately on 10 gallon batches, though.

 

[DKershner]

Just to follow up on this - I brewed today with my newly installed thermometer in my MLT. Lost 4-5 degrees in the MLT during a 75 minute mash. I'm starting to see the benefit of HERMS!

You can do a mashout as well, which is very difficult to do in most mash tuns with an infusion, you would need a very large one.

 

[HappyValley]

I installed my thermowell low in the cooler, and my probe extends about 4" into the mash. Doing 10 gallon batches also. In the past, I had checked the temp of the Mash at the end of the 60 minute rest, and it seemed like 1-2 degrees loss was average. I'm wondering if the steel bulkhead going through the cooler wall is acting as a heat sink and allowing more heat loss?

My beer is generally extremely tasty, but I'm looking for more repeatability and control of the variables. I've read various posts where people have discussed the possibility of overshooting temps using HERMS due to a large thermal mass (HLT water) not responding quickly to temp changes. Is that a common problem? It seems like using low heat on the HLT and insulating the MLT and lines pretty well should prevent the need for large spikes in temperature?