A little science experiment

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CharlaineC

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Picked up a box of brewing supplies the other day July 30th in this kit was an LBK and a box of two of the Mr. Beer hopped extracts. An American ale and Patriot lager. Looking at the dates they were best by 2015 and it's now 2022. I'm the adventurous type so I decided not only to make the two kits but to combine them and add some LME to boost them. on July 31st I boiled 5 cups of water added one cup of lme till dissolved then added both cans of hopped extract. I tried to use the included yeast but it never took off, thus I added a packet of ale yeast. and its happily bubbling away in the corner of the Closet as I wanted to watch this one in 14 days I'm going to bottle it and see how it came out.
 
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FWIW, BYO's Big Book of Homebrewing (1e, 2015, p 19) has a technique for evaluating the color of malt extract - and current color can be an indication of the quality of the malt extract.
 
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CharlaineC

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So today I moved the 2 gallons of experimental over to 2 one gal containers to get it off the trub. The beer tastes cidery but not too bad so far. I think it will need a few weeks to finish before bottling.
 

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Looks like this experiment is on track for confirming that brewing with outdated (or stale) extract results in a "choke it down" or a dump-able beer.
 

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Looks like this experiment is on track for confirming that brewing with outdated (or stale) extract results in a "choke it down" or a dump-able beer.

Maybe, but maybe not. It might not be as good as it would have been when fresh. It is a kit beer, so it almost goes without saying it does not have the same potential as a well designed all grain brew.

But it may be quite drinkable, depending on OP's expectations.

But yeah, like most consumable products, fresher is usually better.
 
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But yeah, like most consumable products, fresher is usually better.
Exactly.

But let's back up a bit.

The topic is "A little science experiment".

This "experiment" has been run many times, confirming the same result.

So maybe this is "settled science" - brewing with stale extract results in a sub-par, "choke it down", or dump-able beer.

Maybe the more interesting "science" is brewing award winning beer with "extract". 🤷‍♂️
 
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CharlaineC

CharlaineC

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This experiment is mainly because of a few things. 1. I've never used the brand's extracts before only the lbk for other things. 2. I've never used an outdated product and don't know what the results would be. 3. I'm interested in seeing what happens when you two-stage pre-hopped extracts. lastly, I'm brewing this, in the same manner, that many of the soldiers I served with did in Iraq to bypass the fact that it was a dry country. I know excessive heat in shipping changes extracts and makes them taste much older. While I never approved of soldiers doing things like this I always wondered why they still did it

I've only ever brewed with fresh ingredients. This is for me just as I said an experiment. I am not honestly expecting to have a drinkable product in the end.
 
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Broken Crow

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It could well be drinkable.... I once used an 11-year past date Coopers kit... Stunk the whole house up [and really pissed off my GF :p ], but I did throw an oz. of Fuggles in, just to 'freshen it up' a bit. It finished pretty much near-opaque black and was actually pretty tastey..even my GF liked it. ;)
..maybe consider a small dry-hop to make up for the age-related losses.
 
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CharlaineC

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Well, I have to say that the experiment is fermenting very well and clearing up slowly. Tested at time of first stage ferment July 31 at 65 degrees at 1.065. moved to secondary fermentation one week later Aug 8th at 70 degrees at 1.055. Tested today Aug 11 at 70 degrees at 1.035. Deep copper\nut brown in colour still slightly cloudy, rich malty scent with mild hop aroma. Slightly sweet with a light smoky aftertaste. All in all so far not bad. Will test at bottling once signs of active fermentation have stopped.
 
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CharlaineC

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I have won quite a few contests with extract brewing in my time. Mind you I do not brew 100% extract so it depends on what you mean by extract brew. With today's extracts, you get much higher quality than in the past.
 

doug293cz

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Well, I have to say that the experiment is fermenting very well and clearing up slowly. Tested at time of first stage ferment July 31 at 65 degrees at 1.035. moved to secondary fermentation one week later Aug 8th at 70 degrees at 1.055. Tested today Aug 11 at 70 degrees at 1.065. Deep copper\nut brown in colour still slightly cloudy, rich malty scent with mild hop aroma. Slightly sweet with a light smoky aftertaste. All in all so far not bad. Will test at bottling once signs of active fermentation have stopped.
Are you really saying that your SG is increasing (1.035 -> 1.055 -> 1.065) over time during "fermentation"? Do you have an explanation for this totally implausible occurrence?

Brew on :mug:
 

bracconiere

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Are you really saying that your SG is increasing (1.035 -> 1.055 -> 1.065) over time during "fermentation"? Do you have an explanation for this totally implausible occurrence?

Brew on :mug:


i can't even figure how it could be a refrac issue...even they go down, just down as much as they're supposed too?
 
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CharlaineC

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I'm using a very odd set of hydrometers and converting ill post a pic of them later. I'll check my notes to verify. I most likely have them backwards. Thank you for pointing it out as well. I had used speCh to text when I posted
 
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CharlaineC

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Here's the set I'm using it's odd you use a different one per the temp in than it read the sg. I could be misreading it. I'm not sure. I have a Good one coming next week with a refractometer as well.

The title reads. Alcohol meter temperature concentration conversion table.

Instructions for use of alcohol temperature and concentration conversion table 2. Wipe the thermometer and set it up in the glass measuring cylinder (in the range of 0~40℃, otherwise it should be heated or cooled down), so as to prepare the reading; not less than 300 ml is better) There should be no dirt or turbidity in the alcohol. (Alcohol temperature should then wipe the alcohol meter of 30-60 and slowly sink it into the glass graduated cylinder. At this time, three situations will occur: 1. The alcohol concentration measured by the alcohol meter is only the actual concentration of alcohol at the standard temperature (20°C), but in actual work, the temperature of the alcohol cannot be the standard temperature of 20°C, so it is necessary to adjust the non-standard temperature The degree obtained by converting the alcohol concentration to the standard temperature measured below is the actual concentration of alcohol. 2. The temperature application range of this watch is 0-+40℃ 3. How to use: 1. Put the pre-measured alcohol into the glass measuring cylinder first (the volume of the measuring cylinder is ①The liquid level is within the range of the graduation scale, At this time, the alcohol meter can be taken out and replaced with the 0-30 gauge; 3. The liquid level is higher than the graduation scale or the alcohol meter is sinking to the bottom. Take out the alcohol meter and replace it with 60~100 specifications; When the liquid level sits for 5 minutes within the range of the graduation scale 3. After reading, the reading can be taken. The reading position is the place where the liquid level is tangent to the graduation scale (read by pressing the edge) and record the value of the alcohol meter. Take the thermometer 4. Check the table Look down the side of the conversion table for the alcohol meter you wrote down Indicate the value, look up the thermometer in the vertical direction of the conversion table. After both are found, look at the alcohol meter and check it from top to bottom, and the thermometer from left to right. The value at the intersection of the two is To measure the actual concentration of alcohol. Example: The alcohol concentration measured with an alcohol meter in the glass is 61 degrees, and the temperature of the alcohol measured with a thermometer is 18 °C, and the actual concentration of the alcohol is 61.7 degrees.
 

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bracconiere

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now i'm curious, do you have a gram scale? and a measuring cup?

the only one of those i see the scale on looks more like a proof trales hydro....
 

bracconiere

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I do have a scale that does metric and us measurments. and standard measuring cups as well


then measure out 250ml as acuratly as you can and see how much more then 250g's it weighs, or less....divide that by 250...i just learned that trick to get SG, your hydro set is very weird to me..

i'd guess 250ml, would weigh around 253g's...if it's 1.010, 266g's if 1.065....~259g's if 1.035...


edit: eyeballing it isn't as accurate as a hydro, but in a pinch can come in handy...
 

bracconiere

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I'll do that when I do my next reading on Sunday.


looking forward to it, new trick i spent 2 days crunching, because someone else round these parts wanted to figure SG without a hydro....

led me to more crunching, SG is density. so if 250ml weighs more then water, that's how much more dense it is then water...
 
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CharlaineC

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it was in a lot I bought recently as I'm not able to afford to rebuild to the degree I was at before the wildfires as that took me years to build up to. with prices as they are I'm back to very basics and trying to buy lots people near me are selling and willing to negotiate.
 

bracconiere

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By the goddess that must have been annoying. I'm used to the standard hydros.


Hahaha, naw, just some daydrinking playing music match on the radio! and i got something i can use now in the future out of it! (hint i ordered 1ml pippets, just to see if i can use my cheap mg scale as a ghetto easy dens in the future! ;))

:mug:


edit: just squirt 1ml on it and it will be even better because it reads in 0.000, so what ever it reads should be the gravity! might be a new home brew trick! :D
 
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CharlaineC

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Hahaha, naw, just some daydrinking playing music match on the radio! and i got something i can use now in the future out of it! (hint i ordered 1ml pippets, just to see if i can use my cheap mg scale as a ghetto easy dens in the future! ;))

:mug:


edit: just squirt 1ml on it and it will be even better because it reads in 0.000, so what ever it reads should be the gravity! might be a new home brew trick! :D
I just got dang dum near lifetimes worth of pippets off of gov planet for like 5 bucks for about 1k or so.
 

bracconiere

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I just got dang dum near lifetimes worth of pippets off of gov planet for like 5 bucks for about 1k or so.


yeah it was $5 for these too...if it works out though, going to be going through them pretty quick....honestly i don't even remember why i have a mg scale, i don't do water chemistry or anything?

best memory gives me, i think i was trying to save money on mineral dietary supplements.....
 
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CharlaineC

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I bought them because I wanted to use the refractometer I have. Sadly it's damaged and you cannot read anything as there is no blue line whatsoever when you try to adjust it. I was able to order another with the hopes that scamazon doesn't strike again.
 

bracconiere

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I bought them because I wanted to use the refractometer I have. Sadly it's damaged and you cannot read anything as there is no blue line whatsoever when you try to adjust it. I was able to order another with the hopes that scamazon doesn't strike again.



at least maybe you can make some money back from the antique hydros!
 

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i'd guess 250ml, would weigh around 253g's...if it's 1.010, 266g's if 1.065....~259g's if 1.035...
Wouldn't the higher alcohol content be the lighter mass per 250ml volume? That would shift 1.010 to 247.5 gm, 1.035 @ 241.5 gm, 1.065 @ 234.7 gm.
So 250ml / your weight = SG.
But I doubt that the unfermented wort weighed 250 gms, as there is more than simply water in there.
 
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balrog

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Wouldn't the higher alcohol content be the lighter mass per 250ml volume? That would shift 1.010 to 247.5 gm, 1.035 @ 241.5 gm, 1.065 @ 234.7 gm.
So 250ml / your weight = SG.
But I doubt that the unfermented wort weighed 250 gms, as there is more than simply water in there.

Exactly. SG is density, units are mass/volume, so take weight and divide by the 250ml volume.
 

bracconiere

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So 250ml / your weight = SG.


other way around, divide your weight by what ever volume it is, gives SG...so if alcohol was in it, it could be less then one...


like 249/250=0.996 (it's really just a fairly good guess, because scales accurate enough, and eyeballs that can distinguish 1 cm3 of a fluid, are hard to come by)

i've found acctually weighing a whole half gallon is the most accurate....damn, now i got an idea for a new better tilit! my co2 scale would be able to weigh a 5gallon batch and watch the weight go down in 0.1oz increments!

edit: a typical 5 gallon batch will lose ~7oz's....i wonder if losing the co2 would change the volume too much though?
 
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CharlaineC

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So I finally got my refratometer. testing the beer at 68 degrees allowing the sample time to match the tester the sample reads 1.038. When tasting the rest of the sample, I found it surprisingly clean with slightly hoppy bitterness and no noticeable off-flavors. I will be bottling this today with 2 grams of dextrose to 1 cup water in about I'm guessing 12 to 22 bottles. The beer cleared up decently as well. Photos to come
 

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So I finally got my refratometer. testing the beer at 68 degrees allowing the sample time to match the tester the sample reads 1.038. When tasting the rest of the sample, I found it surprisingly clean with slightly hoppy bitterness and no noticeable off-flavors. I will be bottling this today with 2 grams of dextrose to 1 cup water in about I'm guessing 12 to 22 bottles. The beer cleared up decently as well. Photos to come
Using the calculator for reading refractometer with alcohol, yes?
 
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