A little Lager Help!

[SchmidtyBeer]

So I have attempted my first lager, a schwarzbier. My main concern right now is that It has been in the primary for 4 days now and I have no signs of fermentation. No krausen, no airlock activity, and no drop in gravity. I went ahead and introduced some more oxygen to it this morning and gave it a good swirl, so maybe the yeast will wake up and get to work!

Here is the recipe and some notes I have taken along the way:

6 lbs 1.6 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain
4 lbs 9.6 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain
8.0 oz Chocolate Malt (420.0 SRM) Grain
3.5 oz Carafa II (412.0 SRM) Grain
3.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain

60 min 0.18 oz Cascade [7.80 %] (60 min) Hops
60 min 2.00 oz Hallertauer [3.60 %] (60 min) Hops
20 min 0.50 oz Hallertauer [3.60 %] (20 min) Hops
15 min 1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0 min 0.50 oz Hallertauer [3.60 %] (0 min) Hops

German Lager Yeast (wlp830)

*Held a 153 degree mash for full 60 minutes
*90 minute boil
*I had no time to get a starter going but I pitched FOUR packages of yeast!

FINISHED BEER WAS PLACED INTO 30-40 DEGREE FREEZER TO REDUCE TO PITCHING TEMP. AFTER A FEW HOURS I RACKED INTO A NEW CARBOY, AERATED, AND PITCHED THE YEAST. THE TEMPERATURE WAS IN THE 50-52 DEGREE RANGE. AMBIENT TEMPERATURE GOING INTO THE FERMENTING CHAMBER WAS 41 DEGREES. THERMOSTAT SET TO 44 DEGREES.

PITCHING TIME: FRIDAY OCTOBER 23, 2009 AT 12:30 AM.

Temperature will slowly be increased up to 50 degrees by Sunday Oct. 25

10/26/09 12:18 pm - 52 degrees, still no sign of fermentation after 4 days. In an attempt to start fermentation I added more o2 and gave it a good shake.

Any input or help would awesome!


Thanks
Chris

 

[Pangea]

#1 - Airlock activity is not an indication of fermentation.

#2 - Lager yeast behaves very different than ale yeast. Typically lagers do not have much krausen at all. My lagers (pilsners mostly) have about a 1 cm (or less) foam, that doesnt look like ale krausen at all. Remember, bottom vs top fermening yeasts.

#3 - how are you measuring the wort temp? Your chamber is in the low 40s, how do you know your wort is at 50something? Do you have a thermowell stopper or something? I think your temps may be too low, which is why I ask.

 

[SchmidtyBeer]

I realize that airlock activity is not an indicator, I was simply making a point that nothing at all is going on.

I have a probe thermometer in the carboy which has been in the 50-52 degree range. I started the fermentation at 44 and slowly raised it to 50 over roughly 36 hours. All of this is taking place in a chest freezer with temperature control.

I also took a gravity reading this morning and it was still at the OG: 1.057.

Should I maybe bring the wort up to room temperature to get it going?

 

[Yooper]

I realize that airlock activity is not an indicator, I was simply making a point that nothing at all is going on.

I have a probe thermometer in the carboy which has been in the 50-52 degree range. I started the fermentation at 44 and slowly raised it to 50 over roughly 36 hours. All of this is taking place in a chest freezer with temperature control.

I also took a gravity reading this morning and it was still at the OG: 1.057.

Should I maybe bring the wort up to room temperature to get it going?

For cold pitching lagers, it's recommended to make at least a 4L starter. Did you make a starter? Without a starter, it might take a LONG time to get going.

 

[elmetal]

I think 41 is too cold for a lager fermentation....
unless you're talking 41F for a SOAF box ambient temp... what does your fermometer say?

 

[SchmidtyBeer]

For cold pitching lagers, it's recommended to make at least a 4L starter. Did you make a starter? Without a starter, it might take a LONG time to get going.

I would usually make a starter but I was short on time, so I pitched 4 viles of German Lager Yeast into a 1.057 wort.

 

[SchmidtyBeer]

I think 41 is too cold for a lager fermentation....
unless you're talking 41F for a SOAF box ambient temp... what does your fermometer say?

Sorry for the confusion! I had the freezer in the low 30s just to bring the wort from the mid 60s down to 44. Once the wort reached 48-50 degrees I pitched the yeast. At the time the FREEZER was at 41 as it was warming up. It settled at 44-45 degrees then from there i brought the temperature up 50 degrees over a couple days. It has currently been at 50-52 degrees for 2-3 days.

 

[elmetal]

ah ok. all I can think is..... I don't know! not a lager expert over here. never done one

 

[Yooper]

Well, I just don't have any good advice. I can't figure out why it's not going. Although I'm a big believer in starting fermentation at the proper temperatures, in this case I might be persuaded to try allowing it to warm up slightly. Even getting it in the high 50s might be enough to wake up those yeast and get them working.

I'd swirl the fermenter to resuspend the yeast, and gradually allow it to warm up. As soon as I saw fermentation starting, I'd gradually cool it back to 52 degrees or so, though.

 

[Fingers]

Since you didn't make a starter, it's possible that your yeast was less than ideal, even with the extra vials. I wouldn't bring it up all the way to room temperature, but a rise would help get it going. Once it starts you should begin slowly lowering the temps right away. You don't want the lager yeast doing too much work at high temps.

You should always do a starter, especially for lagers. You really need to know that you've got lots of viable yeast to go to town.

 

[passedpawn]

Get it up to 60 immediately! As soon as a krausen forms, lower it to 55, then 45 the next day.

4 days with no activity is risky.

 

[sudbuster]

....................Any input or help would awesome!


Thanks
Chris

OK, don't worry. What Yooper said is right. You should have made a starter. But IMHO, all is not lost. Give this thing some time. You gave it about $22.00 worth of yeast. Just set the temp at 52F. and let it rock. If your yeast was fresh, it'll go. If the yeast was not fresh, it will take longer, but it will go. Be sanitary, be patient. Next time , make a starter. Four liters for lite, 8 liters for heavy.

 

[Pangea]

Warm that baby up a bit. I say upper 50s, even 60s until you get activity, then bring it down to low 50s.

 

[SchmidtyBeer]

Thanks for all the input! I still have no activity this morning so I am going to raise it up. I did take a gravity reading sampled it....no signs of infection yet.

I will keep everyone up to date!

 

[SchmidtyBeer]

OK, don't worry. What Yooper said is right. You should have made a starter. But IMHO, all is not lost. Give this thing some time. You gave it about $22.00 worth of yeast. Just set the temp at 52F. and let it rock. If your yeast was fresh, it'll go. If the yeast was not fresh, it will take longer, but it will go. Be sanitary, be patient. Next time , make a starter. Four liters for lite, 8 liters for heavy.

I will definitely make a starter next time! This was the first time I have not made one... and I am regretting it!

 

[menschmaschine]

Your problem is surprising. 4 vials of WLP830 should have got that going in 1 to 3 days. Was the yeast near or past it's expiration date? Is it possible they had been exposed to extreme temperatures?

I'm not really in the raise-the-temperature camp... maybe to no more than 55°F. If 4 vials of WLP830 can't get a 1.057 beer going in 4 or 5 days, something is wrong with the yeast. Adding more yeast is a better option if at all possible.

Next time I wouldn't bother with the WLP830 if you can get a couple packets of Saflager W-34/70. It's the same strain and the results of my using both WLP830 and W-34/70 in the same beer recipes are that they are the same strain.

 

[SchmidtyBeer]

If i was to re-pitch would you recommend the WLP830 or the saflager w-34/70?

 

[Yooper]

If i was to re-pitch would you recommend the WLP830 or the saflager w-34/70?

I'd use the two packages of saflager. That sound get going more quickly.

 

[SchmidtyBeer]

FINALLY! I just got back from work and it is finally going, there is a healthy krausen and some obvious activity. It only took oh......5 days to start!!

I did end up raising the temp to 55 but it now back at 50.

After the majority of fermentation is complete should I just leave it at 50 or should I do diacetyl rest?? seeing as how the temperature was out of wack for those first 5 days and there was no fermentation, i would like to clean it up as much as possible.

 

[Yooper]

FINALLY! I just got back from work and it is finally going, there is a healthy krausen and some obvious activity. It only took oh......5 days to start!!

I did end up raising the temp to 55 but it now back at 50.

After the majority of fermentation is complete should I just leave it at 50 or should I do diacetyl rest?? seeing as how the temperature was out of wack for those first 5 days and there was no fermentation, i would like to clean it up as much as possible.

You may or may not need one. You can do one routinely, and it won't hurt. If you want to taste for diacetyl, in high amounts it's buttery or even butterscotch. In minute amounts, it's a "slick" or oily feeling on the tongue.

At least it's going now! Five days of stress before they got to work. Sometimes, brewing is very frustrating!

 

[menschmaschine]

I would definitely do a diacetyl rest. The increased temperature is one thing, but the fact that it took that long to get going means the yeast were either stressed or had to undergo a lot of growth to get to the fermentation point. Either way, flavor-active compounds were likely produced in excess.