a few questions on commercial lagering

[perfection]

(i) Does cold crashing apply to lagering
(ii) is lagering always done by racking into a secondary/brite tank/conditioning tank or can be done in the primary fermentation tank if temperature control and pressurization facilities are available?
(iii) are lagers fully carbonated after lagering or is additional carbonation done before bottling.
(iv) It is the carbon di oxide from primary fermentation that is allowed to dissolve in the fermenting wort or something from the secondary fermentation that dissolves in the green beer? If it is the former, then pressure must be maintained in the secondary as well if there is a secondary
(iv) does not filtration affect the level of carbonation?

Thank you folks here again!

Please render answers wherever possible in terms of commercial production of lagers

 

[brandonlovesbeer]

I) Not really. But yes. Lagers are already cold. But when it's sent to the brite tank the temperature gets lowered to 34°F Same as with ales.

ii) No. It stays in the fermenter. They may drop the temperature. But as stated before (in my previous respond or maybe the PM I sent you) the beer is filtered from fermenter to the Brite tank. Pro breweries do not do secondary. The brite tank is for carbonation. That's it.

iii) The beer is transferred to the brite tank. Carbonated. Then bottled.

IV)There is no secondary. And the fermenter has a blow off tube so it doesn't explode. Just like homebrewing.
Plus. When the finished beer goes through all the filters the natural CO2 is gone. So it is force carbonated in the Brite tank.

V) refer to my answer for question 4.

 

[C-Rider]

Heard an add on the radio...one of the BMC companies don't remember which claimed to produce their lagers in like 22 days. How the hell do they mash, boil, ferment and lager in less than a month?

 

[wobdee]

Filtering reduces lagering times

 

[redllama]

Heard an add on the radio...one of the BMC companies don't remember which claimed to produce their lagers in like 22 days. How the hell do they mash, boil, ferment and lager in less than a month?

With commercial pitch rates I would guess 5-7 days of fermentation with a 2 week "lager."

 

[bfish]

fermenting under pressure reduces time too.

 

[brandonlovesbeer]

They don't ferment under pressure. They use a blow off tube just like the airlock on a carboy. Only difference is it's stainless steel and 2 stories tall.View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1498576603.204884.jpg
If you look at this image closely you'll see the blow off tube coming out of the top and running down the leg of the tank.

Typically it's dipped into a big bucket full of Iodaphor. During fermentation it looks like an active volcano.

 

[TheMadKing]

Heard an add on the radio...one of the BMC companies don't remember which claimed to produce their lagers in like 22 days. How the hell do they mash, boil, ferment and lager in less than a month?

Very doable with their precise control of every variable. My homebrew lagers are ready to drink in about 25 days. Careful temp manipulation speeds primary fermentation and D-rest (done in about 7-10 days) Cold crash and gelatin and cold storage for an additional 15 days and they are ready to drink. Peak flavor isn't reached until about 35 days or so though, but they don't really care about peak flavor.

 

[idylldon]

They don't ferment under pressure. They use a blow off tube just like the airlock on a carboy. Only difference is it's stainless steel and 2 stories tall.View attachment 405625
If you look at this image closely you'll see the blow off tube coming out of the top and running down the leg of the tank.

Typically it's dipped into a big bucket full of Iodaphor. During fermentation it looks like an active volcano.

That is the CIP arm and it's used for cleaning and also for blow off during active fermentation. Also, while technically it's not fermenting under pressure, there is a slight back pressure present when the blow-off tube is in the sanitizer during fermentation. I've never measured it, but it's not enough to make my pressure gauge move at all.

Cheers,
--
Don

 

[wobdee]

Just the sheer volume of those huge ferment tanks create a heck of a lot more pressure than our tiny little 5 gal batches.

 

[Qhrumphf]

We close off our fermentations towards the end, maybe 1-2P above target gravity. This in turn brings most of our CO2 for carbonation. We drop down slowly in the tank, drop the yeast out the bottom (and repitch into other beers), and then lager. The "secondary" at pro scale usually means yeast has been dropped from the bottom (only practical with a conical). We don't filter or anything and opt for low and slow for our lagers, takes about 3 weeks of controlled ramping from 50F to D-rest (our house lager yeast is a slow one too) to finish (longer for higher gravity lagers), about a week (5F per day) to hit 33F for lagering, and then we give it a month or so cold under pressure to crisp up and drop fully brite. Most of that is clearing, so filtration would definitely speed it up.

Our brite tank is strictly a carbonation vessel to bring CO2 where we want it prior to kegging it.

 

[brandonlovesbeer]

Commercial pitching rates are huge. 1 or 2 Standard-size kegs worth of yeast.

Proportionately it's the same amount of yeast as a homebrew should have. Once in the fermenter, it gets going in about 24 hours. And takes about 7 days to ferment.

 

[Hanglow]

Heard an add on the radio...one of the BMC companies don't remember which claimed to produce their lagers in like 22 days. How the hell do they mash, boil, ferment and lager in less than a month?

I know Tennents is only lagered for as little as two days - 7 at the most It's also fermented relatively warm about fourteen degrees c and to about 7.5% abv, then liquored back at bottling to four percent. They can essentially push out their pishwater in a couple of weeks. And Tennents isn't even the worst commodity lager around, there are plenty worse