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a couple of papazian recipe questions...

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chelero

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hello all,
I'm looking to attempt a couple of recipes from the J of HB(namely the toadspit and armenian imperial stouts), but I can only get a limited selection from my LHBS(i'm outside the USA, so I can't order by mail either) and I was wondering:


1. can DME be substituted for extract syrup? if so, is there a standard conversion?

2. if all I can get is a light DME, can I substitute it for a dark DME? if so, how?

3. can I roast my own barley?

4. is gypsum absolutely necessary?

5. any other good substitutes for northern brewer, magnum, galena, simcoe, horizon, or chinook hops?? my LHBS has fuggles, amarillo, yakima goldings, saaz, and cascade

I realize these are tons of crazy questions, and these beers may only come slightly close to their original designs, but that's fine with me. any help is greatly appreciated!
thanks so much,
c
 

JarrodH

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hello all,
I'm looking to attempt a couple of recipes from the J of HB(namely the toadspit and armenian imperial stouts), but I can only get a limited selection from my LHBS(i'm outside the USA, so I can't order by mail either) and I was wondering:

1. can DME be substituted for extract syrup? if so, is there a standard conversion?

2. if all I can get is a light DME, can I substitute it for a dark DME? if so, how?

3. can I roast my own barley?

4. is gypsum absolutely necessary?

5. any other good substitutes for northern brewer, magnum, galena, simcoe, horizon, or chinook hops?? my LHBS has fuggles, amarillo, yakima goldings, saaz, and cascade

I realize these are tons of crazy questions, and these beers may only come slightly close to their original designs, but that's fine with me. any help is greatly appreciated!
thanks so much,
c
1) Brewing Formulas This is the standard that I have read is a reasonable conversion.

3) I have read that you can with your oven, but its kinda a pain in the butt for personal use.

4) Depends on your water.

5) Hop Substitution Chart for Home Brewing | Just Home Brew It! How to Homebrew, home brewing tips, thoughts, ideas
 

BigEd

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First you need to understand that those recipes from the old Papazian books were written 25 years ago. Homebrewing techniques, recipes and ingredients have evolved since then.

1) Yes. LME is 20% water so on a weight-for-weight basis 5 units of DME is equal to 6 units of LME.

2) Yes you can and (see above) most modern recipes would use light extract as the base. A stout is 10%+ dark roasted grain so if you use light extract add 10% dark roasted grain by weight to the recipe.

3) I'm sure you can. Do some searching and I'm sure there are instructions out there somewhere.

4) For an extract recipe, no. Frankly a typical stout recipe would use calcium carbonate rather than calcium sulphate (see above). A little bit in an extract recipe won't hurt and the sulphates will give the hops some extra edge but if you don't have don't worry about it.

5) Stouts in general are not fussy about hops. Of the hops available I would use the one with the highest AA% for bittering and use either the Cascade, Goldings, Amarillo or Fuggles for flavor/aroma based on your personal tastes.

:mug:
 
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chelero

chelero

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thanks so much for the quick repies!
BigEd, thanks for the advice! so let me just make sure i understand:
-5 units of liquid malt extract is equal to 6 units of dry malt extract?
- as far as the light DME instead of the dark is concerned, i should just use light DME for the amount that it calls for in dark DME, then add 10% more of the dark grains? if it calls for black patent, use 10%more?

Jarrod, thanks for the links, that helps alot!

so, if the papazian recipes are a little outdated, is there another place I could search to find the recipes i'm looking for, and be able to accomodate them with my limited selection of ingredients?
 

BigEd

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thanks so much for the quick repies!
BigEd, thanks for the advice! so let me just make sure i understand:
-5 units of liquid malt extract is equal to 6 units of dry malt extract?
- as far as the light DME instead of the dark is concerned, i should just use light DME for the amount that it calls for in dark DME, then add 10% more of the dark grains? if it calls for black patent, use 10%more?

Jarrod, thanks for the links, that helps alot!

so, if the papazian recipes are a little outdated, is there another place I could search to find the recipes i'm looking for, and be able to accomodate them with my limited selection of ingredients?
Extract: less DME = more LME because LME contains 20% water.

A little black patent goes a long, long way. Why don't you post the basic list of ingredients and the members can make some good substitution/replacement suggestions.

The old Papazian book was great but I strongly suggest getting yourself a more up to date publication. John Palmer's "How to Brew" is the concensus choice for modern, general info homebrewing books. A basic version is available online but the full paper version is an excellent resource to have on hand. For specific recipes try searching this and other HB forums.
 
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chelero

chelero

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Thanks again BigEd!
OK, so I talked to my LHBS owner, and this is what he has right now:
-as i said before, only light DME
-grains: mexican 6 row malt, black malt, caramel malt, and chocolate malt
-hops: Hallertau, Yakima Golding, Galena, Williamette, Cascade, Chinook
-dried yeast: Nottingham, Windsor, Munton's, and Safbrew(Safebrew?)

I'd like to make a good stout, and it would be my 1st attempt. hopefully I could do something with some combination of these...I'll look through the HBT recipes as well.
thanks again!
c
I'm ordeing the palmer book for the next time I go back to the states. I have read the online version. right now I have only papazian and the dave miller guide to brewing
 

cuinrearview

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Great recipes in the database. Grab as many fresh sachets of Nottingham as you can and stick them in your refridgerator, you won't regret it.

I use light DME and wheat DME for pretty much all of the beers that I currently brew. You have a decent selcection of specialty grains and hops that you should be able to make a few styles of beers before you get bored and decide to mail-order ingredients on-line. Pick of a copy of Randy Mosher's "Radical Brewing" and you find that what you have and what you can get locally will last you much longer than you thought.
 

BigEd

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Thanks again BigEd!
OK, so I talked to my LHBS owner, and this is what he has right now:
-as i said before, only light DME
-grains: mexican 6 row malt, black malt, caramel malt, and chocolate malt
-hops: Hallertau, Yakima Golding, Galena, Williamette, Cascade, Chinook
-dried yeast: Nottingham, Windsor, Munton's, and Safbrew(Safebrew?)

I'd like to make a good stout, and it would be my 1st attempt. hopefully I could do something with some combination of these...I'll look through the HBT recipes as well.
thanks again!
c
I'm ordeing the palmer book for the next time I go back to the states. I have read the online version. right now I have only papazian and the dave miller guide to brewing
You asked earlier about roasted barley. That is the traditional black grain in stouts and if you don't have it a little creative substitution will be in order. Without roasted barley you will have to use the malts on hand at the LHBS. Tehnically the beer may be more of a porter but it will still be good and still be dark. BTW Dave Miller's book is very good. Not as current as Palmer's but still a nice resource.

Here is a start.

3 Kg of DME as your base for a 5 gallon/20 litre recipe.

Mixture of steeping malts for color and extra flavor:
125g black malt
500g chocolate malt
125g caramel malt

Bitter with Galena to ~35 IBU and if you want a touch of hop flavor use a small middle addition of Golding or Willamette for English/Irish style or Cascade for American. Use whichever yeast is your favorite. I would lean towards the Nottingham from that list.

Just curious, but where are you and why can't you mail order supplies?
 
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chelero

chelero

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BigEd and Cuinrearview:
thanks again for all the help!
i'm south of the border in mexico. close to mx city. we have a very young fledgling homebrew store in mx city, and that's pretty much it. and the mail(especially international) is really pretty dicey around here. but I'm originally from texas and go up a couple of times a year, so I can get some supplies/ingredients next time i'm up. I'm just getting started with a couple of kits, but the LHBS is having a storewide sale, so I wanted to take advantage and get some ingredients together for my 1st real brew(sans training wheels!)
so BigEd, that's a full recipe then? awesome! i'm going to order the ingredients from the LHBS tomorrow!
and yes, i've got a growing wish-list of brewing books for the next time i'm up there, and the mosher and palmer books are both on there! thanks so much!
c
 
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chelero

chelero

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i'm such a noob, but how much hops do i need to buy for ~35 IBU? my lhbs sells them in pellet form in 1oz bags. I've tried searching the site for conversions, and my papazian book, but I'm pretty sure I'm not doing the calculation correctly. I would like to order soon, but i don't want to order too much/little.
thanks
 

Shawn Hargreaves

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i'm such a noob, but how much hops do i need to buy for ~35 IBU?
"it depends" (tm)

Your final IBU is affected by many things:

  • The amount of alpha acids (%aa) in the hops you are using
  • How long you boil them for (longer boil = higher IBU)
  • How large a volume of wort you boil them in (5 gallon boil = higher IBU than if you boil a smaller quantity and then dilute when adding to the fermenter)
  • How concentrated the wort is during the boil (lots of malt = lower IBU: this is why some people do a late extract addition)

I highly recommend software for working this stuff out. Using a program like Beer Smith, you can enter your ingredients, set your boil volume, tell it whether you are using late extract addition, tell it the %aa of the hops you are using, and it will work out what IBU you will get from this.

Much easier than trying to work this out by hand!
 

BigEd

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i'm such a noob, but how much hops do i need to buy for ~35 IBU? my lhbs sells them in pellet form in 1oz bags. I've tried searching the site for conversions, and my papazian book, but I'm pretty sure I'm not doing the calculation correctly. I would like to order soon, but i don't want to order too much/little.
thanks
One ounce of Galena in a partial boil should be close enough. As was suggested already there are lots of beer softwares you can use to fine tune things.
 

katja

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Just brewed ths Papazian Armenian Imperial Stout aaaaand.....yum! It's been bottled for less than a week but I had to try a bottle yesterday. I'm new to brewing and this is delicious.

When talking about substituting DME for the LME, consider that the Muntons Old Ale kits recommended are already hopped. I'm to much of a noob to feel comfortable recommending type/amount of hops to compensate though.
 

cheeseshark

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Just my two cents on the Papazian recipes: They are definitely worth a try, even if they might be a bit old. Some of my very best batches have been Papazian's recipes, including my first 1st place award. So, give a few of them a try - I haven't been disappointed yet.
 
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