# A calculator for determining 2, or 3 standard boil hop additions 'IBU contribution' via the "Golden Ratio"

### Help Support Homebrew Talk:

#### Silver_Is_Money

##### Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
I believe (subject to correction) this to be a 'worlds first'. The application of the "Golden Ratio" (a ratio observed repeatedly within nature and within living things in general) to hop additions IBU contribution. Now you won't need to guess at how many IBU's to target for each hop addition, spanning from 1 to 3 standard boil hop additions, such as (for example) additions at 60, 30, and 15 minutes remaining within the boil, or (again, for example) additions made at 60 and 20 minutes remaining in the boil.

Download the calculator/spreadsheet at the "Google Drive" link seen below (by pressing the "down arrow" seen within the linked page, located next to the printer icon in the upper right hand corner) and then launch and run it within either Excel or LibreOffice Calc.

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OP

#### Silver_Is_Money

##### Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Shortcuts to achieving the Golden Ratio:

TIBU = Total IBU's = Target IBU's

0.618034 * TIBU = Addition#1 IBU's

0.618034^2 * TIBU = Addition#2 IBU's

An observed (and usable) Golden Ratio oddity of interest, purely as an aside:

0.618034/1.618034 = 0.618034^2

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#### ChiknNutz

##### Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
I am also a fanboy of the Golden Ratio. Curious if this is merely anecdotal or if the application of the GR has some discernible effect.

OP

#### Silver_Is_Money

##### Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Curious if this is merely anecdotal or if the application of the GR has some discernible effect.
This is yet to be seen. To my knowledge, this is new, and it offers a logical and (to much of life itself, also natural) tool that (to my knowledge) has never before been applied to hop "IBU quantification by addition" computation. I have always just guessed at how many IBU's to target for each addition. The question becomes: How many other formalized attempts at accomplishing this end exist, or has everyone else (besides me) merely hunt and peck guessed until they literally stumbled upon something they eventually liked, and which merely by trial and error and/or happenstance summed to the desired IBU target, only to have to re-stumble and re-guess for every new recipe that comes down the pike, or comes from the imagination, etc...?

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#### Silver_Is_Money

##### Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
For those wondering, the two dimensional Golden Ratio is:
0.618034 x 1.618034 = 1.000000

And the three dimensional Golden Ratio is:
0.618034 x 1.000000 x 1.618034 = 1.000000

It finds much use in architecture. But nature itself is replete with examples of it. In retrospect, I guess this explanation/definition should have prefaced this thread.

OP

#### Silver_Is_Money

##### Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
And now for some Zen: It may already be the case that much hunting and pecking and hop addition guessing spanning over many decades (to perhaps centuries), plus many millions of brews, have already unwittingly yet beneficially "trended" hop IBU's per addition "generalizations" toward something akin to the Golden Ratio approach, albeit never recognized and thereby defined and quantified as such.

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#### passedpawn

##### Some rando
For those wondering, the two dimensional Golden Ratio is:
0.618034 x 1.618034 = 1.000000

And the three dimensional Golden Ratio is:
0.618034 x 1.000000 x 1.618034 = 1.000000

It finds much use in architecture. But nature itself is replete with examples of it. In retrospect, I guess this explanation/definition should have prefaced this thread.
If you get the roots of the quadratic equation x^2 + x - 1 = 0 you'll see your numbers.

OP

#### Silver_Is_Money

##### Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
If you get the roots of the quadratic equation x^2 + x - 1 = 0 you'll see your numbers.
Root #1: X = (-1 + SQRT(5))/2 = 0.6180339887....
Root #2: X = (-1 - SQRT(5))/2 = -1.6180339887....

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#### Silver_Is_Money

##### Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
If you get the roots of the quadratic equation x^2 + x - 1 = 0 you'll see your numbers.
I was not previously aware of that. Thanks!!!

#### passedpawn

##### Some rando
I was not previously aware of that. Thanks!!!
Well, it's pretty easy to get there from your own numbers. Sub X for 0.618, you'll see you have X*(X+1)=1. Multiply that out, put in polynomial form, solve for roots.

#### MaxStout

##### Well-Known Member
I downloaded the spreadsheet, and opened in Excel (2013). I can change the Target IBUs no problem, but if I enter anything in the cell under 1, 2, or 3 Hop Additions, it freezes.

OP

#### Silver_Is_Money

##### Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
I downloaded the spreadsheet, and opened in Excel (2013). I can change the Target IBUs no problem, but if I enter anything in the cell under 1, 2, or 3 Hop Additions, it freezes.

Is anyone else seeing this glitch with Excel? I developed it using LibreOffice Calc 7.1.4.2. It's working fine for me in both the Google Sheets and LibreOffice versions.

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#### brewbama

##### Well-Known Member
i like it. I can combine it with the BU:GU ratio to determine the initial target IBU based on OG and calculate additions using the Golden Ratio.

Predicting IBUs is a bit of a "black art", because there are so many variables and there is so much variability. The only way to really know the IBU level of a beer is to have it professionally tested. The results of the evaluation is usually very different than predictive models.

Hops have hundreds of dimensions that influence flavor and bitterness. The IBU is only one of those dimensions.

I realize the BU:GU ratio has issues and may not tell the whole story, and likewise the Tinseth IBU calculation is suspect, but it’s what we have so I use them as a benchmark to evaluate beer. Here’s a chart I use to ballpark for a few styles:
• American Amber: 0.619
• Bohemian Pilsner: 0.800
• Oktoberfest/Marzen: 0.449
• Blonde Ale: 0.467
• California Common: 0.735
• Ordinary Bitters: 0.833
• American Pale Ale: 0.714
• Brown Porter: 0.576
• Dry Irish Stout: 0.872
• English IPA: 0.800
• Weizen/Weissbier: 0.240
• Belgian Trippel: 0.375

#### FunkedOut

##### FunkedOver
How about applying the golden rule to the minutes left in the boil?

60 minute boil:
30, 18.5, 11.5
37, 22.9
60

90 minute boil:
45, 27.8, 17.2
55.6, 34.38
90

None of those schedules seem like they're for me, but maybe in the complete zen beer, they have a place.

OP

#### Silver_Is_Money

##### Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
@FunkedOut, several months ago over on the sister BF forum (where I first made the hops link to the Golden Ratio) I attempted to ( in addition to IBU's) link the Golden Ratio to hop addition times just as you have done above, but for this forum (as well as more recently for the BF forum) I have abandoned the pursuit of this aspect of linking hops to the ratio. I think it best to limit the ratio to determining how to break down desired total IBU's by addition. But anyone who wishes to continue to pursue an addition timing correlation for hops is certainly welcome to do so.

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#### Silver_Is_Money

##### Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Is the spreadsheet working in Excel now? Did it initially as well?

#### FunkedOut

##### FunkedOver
Excel 2019 works fine. I never got the first version.

OP

#### Silver_Is_Money

##### Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
i like it. I can combine it with the BU:GU ratio to determine the initial target IBU based on OG and calculate additions using the Golden Ratio.
That's a great idea!