7’ beer line from basement to kitchen

[MikeSkril]

Hi experts,

I’m planning to switch to kegging and looking for the best way to do so. A small fridge in the kitchen with a tower would be an option but would upset my wife a little. My dream option would be to have the fridge with 3 kegs in the basement and the tab in the kitchen.
It would be about 7’ from the basement fridge to the tab in the kitchen.

I was reading about cooling lines and so on. I don’t want to spend a fortune on a glycol cooling system and I’m looking for ideas.

What if I would run an insulated copper line from the fridge to the tab? The beer lines will run in the cooper line. The copper line could start in the fridge with a 10’ spiral (inside the fridge). Would the copper line transmit the cold over 7’?


Thx!

 

[djonesax]

I wouldn't use Copper. Maybe just insulate regular beer line after it leaves the fridge and use stainless for your coil if you want but Im not sure you'd need the coil. Your first pour might be a little foamy while the line and tap are still warm. Copper can be be poisonous when it interacts with acidic foods like fermented beer.

I found this on another forum, if you are interested.

"4-101.14 Copper, Use Limitation.* High concentrations of copper are poisonous and have caused foodborne illness. When copper and copper alloy surfaces contact acidic foods, copper may be leached into the food. Carbon dioxide may be released into a water supply because of an ineffective or nonexistent backflow prevention device between a carbonator and copper plumbing components. The acid that results from mixing water and carbon dioxide leaches copper from the plumbing components and the leachate is then transferred to beverages, causing copper poisoning. Backflow prevention devices constructed of copper and copper alloys can cause, and have resulted in, the leaching of both copper and lead into carbonated beverages. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc and contains lead which is used to combine the two elements. Historically, brass has been used for items such as pumps, pipe fitting, and goblets. All 3 constituents are subject to leaching when they contact acidic foods, and food poisoning has resulted from such contact. The steps in beer brewing include malting, mashing, fermentation, separation of the alcoholic beverage from the mash, and rectification. During mashing, it is essential to lower the pH from its normal 5.8 in order to optimize enzymatic activity. The pH is commonly lowered to 5.1-5.2, but may be adjusted to as low as 3.2. The soluble extract of the mash (wort) is boiled with hops for 1 to 2½ hours or more. After boiling, the wort is cooled, inoculated with brewers yeast, and fermented. The use of copper equipment during the prefermentation and fermentation steps typically result in some leaching of copper. Because copper is an essential nutrient for yeast growth, low levels of copper are metabolized by the yeast during fermentation. However, studies have shown that copper levels above 0.2 mg/L are toxic or lethal to the yeast. In addition, copper levels as low as 3.5 mg/L have been reported to cause symptoms of copper poisoning in humans. Therefore, the levels of copper necessary for successful beer fermentation (i.e., below 0.2 mg/L) do not reach a level that would be toxic to humans. Today, domestic beer brewers typically endeavor to use only stainless steel or stainless steel-lined copper equipment (piping, fermenters, filters, holding tanks, bottling machines, keys, etc.) in contact with beer following the hot brewing steps in the beer making process. Some also use pitch-coated oak vats or glass-lined steel vats following the hot brewing steps. Where copper equipment is not used in beer brewing, it is common practice to add copper (along with zinc) to provide the nutrients essential to the yeast for successful fermentation."

David

 

[Newsman]

I wouldn't use Copper. Maybe just insulate regular beer line after it leaves the fridge and use stainless for your coil if you want but Im not sure you'd need the coil. Your first pour might be a little foamy while the line and tap are still warm. Copper can be be poisonous when it interacts with acidic foods like fermented beer.

David

I think the OP was planning to use a copper water pipe as a "jacket" around the beer lines, not actually run liquid through the copper pipe / tubing itself.

 

[IslandLizard]

Can you put the small fridge with tap tower in another area besides the kitchen? Den or hallway perhaps, mudroom, laundry room? It would save a lot of hassle and cost.

That 3/4"-1" copper line by itself will not keep your beer lines cold by sheer conduction from a coil in the fridge, it will actually drain cold from your lines as soon as it leaves the fridge.
You'll need some sort of convection system, running a cold liquid in a separate line (+ a return) through the well-insulated bundle creating a trunk line. Pumping cold water from the same fridge may or may not be enough.

7' would be a straight line going up, chances are you'll need a couple extra feet to maneuver, no?

 

[solbes]

But the beer would never contact the copper as the lines would be inside the pipe.

I had this same setup in my chrome beer tower (lines in copper). Even in that setup is not enough to keep the beer in the tower cold. Eventually the beer gets kinda skunky with that setup, so I switched to a fan and now it's plenty cold.

Not sure how you will make this work without glycol, but I'd love to hear about it if you do. I would do the same thing in our future cabin bar if I could. Right now just planning on large mini fridge setup underneath the bar counter

 

[MikeSkril]

I think the OP was planning to use a copper water pipe as a "jacket" around the beer lines, not actually run liquid through the copper pipe / tubing itself.

Exactly.

 

[TX_Brewing]

Save yourself headache on the lines. A reservoir and a pond pump should be able to cool a 7 foot section.

http://www.micromatic.com/draft-keg-beer/glycol-cid-131.html

 

[MikeSkril]

Can you put the small fridge with tap tower in another area besides the kitchen? Den or hallway perhaps, mudroom, laundry room? It would save a lot of hassle and cost.

That 3/4"-1" copper line by itself will not keep your beer lines cold by sheer conduction from a coil in the fridge, it will actually drain cold from your lines as soon as it leaves the fridge.
You'll need some sort of convection system, running a cold liquid in a separate line (+ a return) through the well-insulated bundle creating a trunk line. Pumping cold water from the same fridge may or may not be enough.

7' would be a straight line going up, chances are you'll need a couple extra feet to maneuver, no?

The space in the basement is just under the kitchen where the tab should go. I calculated 7' and that should it be. Its pretty much a straight line.

 

[Newsman]

I don't know if it will work, but you will almost certainly need a fan blowing cold air into the copper pipe and will need to insulate it well, at the very least. Maybe put a copper pipe inside a larger PVC pipe and fill the area between with expanding foam insulation as well as blowing cold air into the pipe. Probably need a "return" for the warmer air, so what I'd suggest would be to put a tower fan in the kegerator, run TWO copper pipes, with only one getting a fan, and have an insulated "box" where the copper terminates and the beer lines go into the shanks. You might even be able to use one of those washing machine wall inserts where your hot and cold water come in and the grey water goes out. Just insulate that and put a front on it where you'd put your taps and it MIGHT be good enough. Just thinking off the top of my head.

 

[MikeSkril]

I now calculated that a 7’ (3/16”) beer line will contain 1.17 oz of beer. Why would I even want to cool that? Even if this part is warm and foamy, would that not just pour a great cold pint of beer?

 

[Lakehub]

I Agee with newsman a small ie computer fan in the fridge to blow cool air up the containment pipe from the fridge. Check out keezer builds for ideas.

 

[kombat]

I now calculated that a 7’ (3/16”) beer line will contain 1.17 oz of beer. Why would I even want to cool that? Even if this part is warm and foamy, would that not just pour a great cold pint of beer?

Because the beer that follows that first ounce of warm beer will be flowing through warm lines, and will warm up, and also be foamy. It will continue to pour foamy until enough beer has flowed through the lines to cool them such that they're no longer warming up the beer and causing CO2 to come out of solution. 7 feet of uncooled line is going to result in A LOT of wasted beer.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Not gunna work.I ran my beer lines inside copper.The first beer is not warm but not cold and foamy.Thats with a fan in the fridge and only 12" from fridge to tap.Im thinking 7 ft is going to give you a TON of warm foamy wasteful beer.

 

[GHBWNY]

I think the OP was planning to use a copper water pipe as a "jacket" around the beer lines, not actually run liquid through the copper pipe / tubing itself.

This^ plus foam pipe insulation around the copper?

 

[MikeSkril]

Because the beer that follows that first ounce of warm beer will be flowing through warm lines, and will warm up, and also be foamy. It will continue to pour foamy until enough beer has flowed through the lines to cool them such that they're no longer warming up the beer and causing CO2 to come out of solution. 7 feet of uncooled line is going to result in A LOT of wasted beer.

And if I cool the kegs a little more to compensate the temperature lost?
I will also insulate the beer lines very well.

 

[kombat]

And if I cool the kegs a little more to compensate the temperature lost? I will also insulate the beer lines very well.

You can try, but honestly if it was that easy, why would so many people bother with the glycol chilled lines? I just have a simple 2-tap kegerator, and the tower is only maybe 14" tall (and insulated), but there is no fan, and even in that short distance from the fridge up the tower, I get half a glass of foam until the lines in the tower have cooled sufficiently for me to pour the rest of the glass.

I applaud your ambition, but I'm afraid you're eventually going to find that incorporating a glycol chilled line and wrapping the whole bundle in insulation is the only practical way to keep the beer cool on the way up to the kitchen and avoid wasting a lot of beer to foamy pours.

 

[djonesax]

Exactly.

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

You said it was a straight shot up.I would run the beer lines in a 4" PVC tube (minimum)Insulate the crap out of it and stick a fan blowing straight up the tube from the fridge. I thought I read someone was asking about running a loop of PVC.Two holes in fridge,a fan blowing up one side and returning back through the other.Keeping a constant air flow moving.Cutting a hole in the top of the loop to let the beer lines out... Sticking beer line in a 3/4 copper tube and trying to blow air up it will get you ZERO air flow.way to small.

 

[MikeSkril]

You said it was a straight shot up.I would run the beer lines in a 4" PVC tube (minimum)Insulate the crap out of it and stick a fan blowing straight up the tube from the fridge. I thought I read someone was asking about running a loop of PVC.Two holes in fridge,a fan blowing up one side and returning back through the other.Keeping a constant air flow moving.Cutting a hole in the top of the loop to let the beer lines out... Sticking beer line in a 3/4 copper tube and trying to blow air up it will get you ZERO air flow.way to small.

This could be one option, but 2 well insulated tubes? That will be at least 6'' each tube. I will have trouble to fit that into the walls. What about that: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=271578

The salt water and aquarium pump seems also a good idea. On the other side blowing air seems to be less effort.

 

[MikeSkril]

Something like the below should work to blow air trough the tube. Anyone doing this successfully to cool lines?
http://www.amazon.com/Marine-Electric-Bilge-Blower-130cfm/dp/B00F7ANK7S

 

[bondra76]

I would suggest getting the glycol chiller vs. throwing money at a 50/50 chance of a DIY solution succeeding.

Highly suggest looking at restaurant auctions in your area. I've been able to score lots of commercial equipment at bargain prices that way (bought my 15 gallon kettle for $60 bucks, bought my 4-tap commercial kegerator for $500)