60A outlet questions for the electricians out there

[augiedoggy]

I hoping someone could answer a question I cannot seem to get an answer for from google.

I have a large 3bbl brewing panel thats powered by 2 60a separate power feeds (they remain separate in the panel)

I am having two 60a gfci outlets put in to plug the panel in rather than hard wiring and Im having a hard time finding out if a "3 phase" nema 15-60r plug and outlet can be used in a single phase configuration and still pass code...
For that matter I am having a hard time finding a single phase 60a nema configuration?
The prices seem to go astronomical for 60a vs 50a.
thanks.

PS also can I use 12/3 SO or SJ wiring for 240v (no neutral) power to my 240v 2000w rims outlet if I color code the white wire to red at both ends or is this something that would be up to the local code inspector?

 

[lschiavo]

Technically electrical devices need to be "listed and labled" for their purpose so the plug and receptacle should be labled for the voltage/current they are used for.

I don't know of any issue with using the white in a cable for a hot. We do it all the time.

 

[augiedoggy]

Technically electrical devices need to be "listed and labled" for their purpose so the plug and receptacle should be labled for the voltage/current they are used for.

I don't know of any issue with using the white in a cable for a hot. We do it all the time.

by listed and labeled to you mean having the rating of 60a and 250v and a ul listed label? im aware of that but most specs for the outlets ive seen are advertised as 3 phase and I dont know if thats a particular pin configuration or if it doesnt matter if its used for single phase as long as theres a sticker on it saying what it is for whomever might use it?

 

[lschiavo]

I'm not exactly sure if the terminology fits here but for your 15-60 example:

The plug is labled for a specific connection. I'm betting that most inspectors would only want it used in that situation.

Have you considered a junction box with screw terminals? Should be a lot cheaper and wouldn't be that big a deal to disconnect once in a while.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm not exactly sure if the terminology fits here but for your 15-60 example:

View attachment 568407

The plug is labled for a specific connection. I'm betting that most inspectors would only want it used in that situation.

Have you considered a junction box with screw terminals? Should be a lot cheaper and wouldn't be that big a deal to disconnect once in a while.

ok so does that 3p stand for 3phase or 3 pole? I have single phase wiring and need 60a plugs Im not really wanting to hardwire it into the building.

 

[lschiavo]

I read it 60A 3 phase 250V 3 pole 4 wire.

It's intended to connect three phase wires and a ground.

 

[lschiavo]

I just looked up a 14-60. Would that work?

 

[Gravitysucks]

ok so does that 3p stand for 3phase or 3 pole? I have single phase wiring and need 60a plugs Im not really wanting to hardwire it into the building.

It's been a while so I may be mis-remembering but I believe 15-60 is 3 phase and 14-60 is single phase. The plug configurations are different.

 

[augiedoggy]

That's it guys, thank you.

 

[Toejam792]

I'm curious why you didn't go with 3 phase elements. Don't you get more heating per kwh with more volts?

 

[doug293cz]

I'm curious why you didn't go with 3 phase elements. Don't you get more heating per kwh with more volts?

No, KWH is a measure of energy, it's basically volts * amps * hours. If you have 2000W element at 240V, then you will use 8.33 amps, and one hour of use will be 2 KWH. If you have 2000W at 120V, then you will use 16.67 amps, and one hour of use will also be 2KWH.

It's true that you can get more power (energy/time) for less current with higher voltage. You can also get more power for less voltage at higher current.

Brew on

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm curious why you didn't go with 3 phase elements. Don't you get more heating per kwh with more volts?

Our building has a 200a single phase service (240 not 208)... Brewery panel will realistically use 100a of that.. doesnt leave much to run the ac, coolbot walkin ac units, freezer and fridge... good thing we wont be brewing while open.

 

[itsnotrequired]

PS also can I use 12/3 SO or SJ wiring for 240v (no neutral) power to my 240v 2000w rims outlet if I color code the white wire to red at both ends or is this something that would be up to the local code inspector?

interestingly enough, circuits over 50 volts that use a flexible cord do NOT require marking a white insulated conductor, if that conductor is ungrounded. can't hurt to mark them though...

 

[Gravitysucks]

Here's a link to a chart I found when I was looking at installing baseboard heaters in my house that may have some relevant information to your RIMS wiring. If you aren't hard wiring your RIMS circuit I think that an inspector's biggest concern would probably be that you are using the proper plugs and receptacles on your cable and controller so nothing else could be accidentally plugged into the circuit. I would double check but I think NEMA 6-20 or L6-20 would be the right plug/receptacles.

https://www.king-electric.com/pdfs/helpful-hints-sizing-chart.pdf

Have you ever checked out:

http://discussions.probrewer.com/forumdisplay.php?29-ProBrewer-Message-Board

There are a few discussions there about starting breweries and dealings with inspectors.

 

[vonski]

208/240 volts are the same. You have real prblems when you fine 277 volts... What is the exact power draw on the brew equipment? RLA and minimum circuit ampacity? Add them up, How many tons of air and walking size or hp?

 

[augiedoggy]

This is my panel (theres been more work done since this pic)... its brucontrol/arduino powered which is Not ul listed.. a couple other components like the SSRS and contactors are only CE certified but I work on equipment all the time that only has CE certification and it's never been an issue for the dozens of companies who have this equipment.(large commercial printing equipment) but we shall see what the inspector tells me I need to do.

I did make sure to use all the correct type and gauge wiring and properly rated components. the 8 30a outlets for the kettle elements are on short hanging SO cable as well as the 20a 240v rims outlets. I also have an electrician friend who will be looking it over soon but hes rather busy and Ive been trying not to pester him. I am also using 2 60a gfci breakers and all wiring is protected by the appropriate sized breakers or fuses. the elements are wired so only one kettle can be active at a time and when the rims comes online one of the 4 5500w HLT elements becomes automatically deactivated.

We built 2 walk in coolers with 5inch foam insulated walls. One will be used more as a temp controlled fermentation room kept at 60 since I will have glycol jacketed conical in there and the other is cooled by a 25,000btu ac (240v) unit and cool it. I did add up the amp load on everything and we should be ok without turning g stuff off when we brew. Most commercial buildings I install and service equipment in has 208v which can sometimes require special equipment or limitations like buck boost transformers and such but at least I'm ok on that aspect. (very old building but wiring/panel has been updated inside)

 

[vonski]

Wow, setup looks amazing, I definitely don't need to asking any more questions. 2 tons, 2hp aka 24,0000 btu is my kind of language. I personally like the pin and sleeve type receptacle / plugs. Industrial stuff that should be listed. Outdoor water tite might be overkill and expensive setup up on a disconnect. Good job, keep it up and be safe.

 

[ajdelange]

I just looked up a 14-60. Would that work?

Yes. I offer the following photo. Look familiar? Note that the UL and CSA approval markings are visible. The photo is of the cable which plugs into my 60A 1ø portable generator which is 'approved' etc. and thus this plug (and it's mating receptacle) are definitely suitable for your purpose. "3P - 4W" here stands for "3 Pole - 4 wire" with the 4th wire (G - the grounding wire) being connected to the pin at 12 o'clock and the poles being, starting at 3 o'clock and proceeding in the CW direction, X (a phase), W (the neutral) and Y (the other phase).

For 3ø ∆ connections you would use a 15-60P which looks like the above but the pins are now labeled G, Z, Y and X (again going in the CW direction starting at 12 o'clock) and the blade at 9'oclock (X) is parallel to the one at 6 o'clock. For 3ø Y you would use the 18-60P which looks like the photo except that the grounding pin at 12 o'clock is replaced with a blade (parallel to the one at 6 o'clock) labeled W. IOW this is for the neutral while the other blades are, as in the 15-60P, for the 3 phases (Z, Y and X). Note that this latter is not a "grounding" plug (there is no grounding wire) so I can't imagine what kind of equipment it would be used with. Gear with non conductive enclousres?

 

[ajdelange]

I'm curious why you didn't go with 3 phase elements. Don't you get more heating per kwh with more volts?

One kWh is 3412 BTU whether it be delivered by single phase or 3 phase wiring. With heaters the big advantage of three phase over single phase is that by adding a 3rd wire you can treble the power conveyed. In this example if he were running the full 60A through single phase wires he would be delivering 60*240 = 14.4 kW to his heater. Assuming the cross section of the wire to be proportional to the current carried it is clear that the weight of copper required of these wires would be proportional to 2*60 = 120 (two wires carrying 60 amperes).

In a three phase system delivering the same power there would be three heaters each supplying 4.8 kW and, at 240 V, each drawing 20 A. Each of the three conductors would supply two heaters and as the currents supplied to the two are 120° apart in phase the magnitude of the sum of those currents (that determines the heating of the conductors) is still only 20 amps. The weight of the copper required to supply 14.4 kW in a 3ø system would thus be proportional to 3*20 = 60. Half what is needed for single phase! Instead of two lengths of AWG 6 required for the single phase connection three lengths of AWG 14 will do for the 3ø system. Would you rather work with 6/2 or 14/3?

[Huge edit here as I relied on memory rather than the math when I posted yesterday and got a completely incorrect result]