60 vs 90 minute boil

[FuriousE]

I understand when using high percentages of pilsner malt, it is generally recommended to do a 90 minute boil to ward off DMS.

I do a very hard boil, and end up boiling off about 2 gallons per hour.

My question is does the extra time help to get rid of the DMS, or is it recommended to do a 90 minute boil to boil off extra water? I understand that most people don't have such a high boil off rate, so a I ok doing a 60 minute boil with pilsner malt, or should I be looking at a 90?

 

[zach976]

I understand when using high percentages of pilsner malt, it is generally recommended to do a 90 minute boil to ward off DMS.



I do a very hard boil, and end up boiling off about 2 gallons per hour.



My question is does the extra time help to get rid of the DMS, or is it recommended to do a 90 minute boil to boil off extra water? I understand that most people don't have such a high boil off rate, so a I ok doing a 60 minute boil with pilsner malt, or should I be looking at a 90?

That's a good question. I would be interested in hearing what others have to say about it too. Sorry I'm no help.


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[NTXBrauer]

I understand when using high percentages of pilsner malt, it is generally recommended to do a 90 minute boil to ward off DMS.

I do a very hard boil, and end up boiling off about 2 gallons per hour.

My question is does the extra time help to get rid of the DMS, or is it recommended to do a 90 minute boil to boil off extra water? I understand that most people don't have such a high boil off rate, so a I ok doing a 60 minute boil with pilsner malt, or should I be looking at a 90?

In answer to your first question..Yes. (The extra time helps to get rid of the DMS.) It takes about 40 minutes to boil off 50% of the DMS, so boiling 90 minutes will get you close to an 80% DMS boil off. Most recommend a hard boil for this full 90 minutes also, which will increase the amount of H2O lost as well.

I would definitely boil for the full 90 minutes when using Pilsner malts, to improve on the flavor profile you will want by minimizing the absorption of too much DMS into the wort. Always chill the wort down quickly as well (which should be normal practice anyway)

 

[JustLooking]

I don't know the science that you're looking for, but logic says that if bad volatiles are removed in the steam, a one hour boil with 2 gallons of boil-off would be essentially the same as a 90 minute boil with 2 gallons of boil-off.

 

[trboyden]

Check out this BeerSmith article on DMS for the facts: http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/04/10/dimethyl-sulfides-dms-in-home-brewed-beer/

• Issue is largely with light body lagers
• 90 minute boils help steam off DMS, if you boil with the pot uncovered
• DMS can be created after the boil with slow cooling/wort exposed to air
• Vigorous fermentation (start lager yeast at 60F) will drive off DMS

 

[FuriousE]

Well, I do cool my wort quickly (4-5 minutes to get down to 70's).

I just finished up doing a Rye Saison that had about 70% pilsner malt, and I only boiled for 60 minutes. I guess I will soon find out if I can detect any DMS!

 

[Wolfbrau]

Theory and practice seem to disagree on this topic. The science, as it is currently known, implies that what the posters above said is true. DMS precursor SMM is driven off by boiling. SMM will continue to be produced when the wort is hot but not be driven off if it's not boiling, so cooling rapidly will reduce DMS. Kilning of the malt is a factor, so the lightest kilned malts will be most susceptible.

In practice, "no chill" brewers have made championship beers without the faintest hint of DMS, and have been for years. I've done some QC on commercial batches and the majority of DMS-problem beers were identified as infected. Lots of anecdotes of people always doing 60 minute boils with no DMS in pilner-malt heavy beers.

My guess is that modern malt production, improved yeast handling practices, and stronger fermentations have made a huge difference. Strictly from a DMS standpoint, go for the 60 minute boil as long as you're confident in your cold side.

From a flavor standpoint, I always do a 90 minute boil.

 

[FuriousE]

From a flavor standpoint, I always do a 90 minute boil.

Could you elaborate a bit more on this? What flavors are different between a 60 and 90 minute boil? I'm asking because I'd like to add boil time as a variable to get the exact flavor I'm after...

 

[Wolfbrau]

I admit it's partially superstition. To me it seems to increase the perception of maltiness. Maillard products? It darkens the wort mildly and I've come to adjust my recipes based on that, I prefer to keep the number of variables I adjust in my brew-day to a minimum.

It also works into my schedule better, since I can rest a bit during the boil and get other stuff done. And I also rely on the longer boil length to adjust my batch volume.

I don't boil crazy hard, just "strong". No "maybe" about whether or not it's boiling, that is. So I don't sit there for 90 minutes with the stuff jumping out of the kettle.

Would I be shocked if it turned out the extra 30 minutes make no real difference? No.

 

[trboyden]

Agreed, biggest difference seems to be 2-row vs. 6-row. With 6-row being more susceptible to DMS. Most of the pilsner malt you are going to get in the US is of the 2-row variety, so non-issue. I have been doing slow chills by cooling in the fridge with a covered fermenter and have had zero DMS issues. Mostly because my tap water is warm in the summer, so getting below 90 is next to impossible. I do practice vigorous fermentations though. Starting fermentation at 54/56F you don't often see fermentation activity, and that gives me anxiety. A day or two at 60F with good bubbles and I am a much happier brewer.

 

[trboyden]

Could you elaborate a bit more on this? What flavors are different between a 60 and 90 minute boil? I'm asking because I'd like to add boil time as a variable to get the exact flavor I'm after...

Longer boil times can caramelize (caramel flavor) the wort some, which is ideal in Oktoberfest or Scotch style beers. You also get more hop isomerization (bitter/resinous flavor) at the cost of hop aroma (which you can add back with 0 minute/whirlpool additions). Sometimes a sweeter flavor/texture as a result of boiling down the wort (think boiling down wine to get a sauce). Other than that I can't think of anything else. Just like no chill methods, people have been experimenting with shorter boil times and get good results.

I think the the key thing to remember is that people have been making beer for thousands of years and long before the current "science" of beer making. So don't over think it. Just have fun and enjoy your results!

 

[Beernik]

DMS is one of the bogeymen of brewing. It is something that most people won't have to worry about. If you don't get it using your process, don't worry about it. If you do get it, there are things you can do to not get it again.

I've been homebrewing 8 years, half that time all grain, and I've never had creamed corn or cabbage in my beers.

I think DMS has largely disappeared as a risk factor because the quality of malt (especially available to homebrewers) has improved dramatically.

Driving off SMM, DMS, and DMSO are functions of vapor pressure pressure partitioning. So I don't think it's safe to assume that if you boil off twice as much water, you boil off twice as much SMM, DMS, and DMSO. Water has a different vapor pressure coefficient.

DMS has a low taste threshold. So you don't have to have much in your beer to taste it. That's why people worry about it. But there are a lot of things other than boiling and cooling time that can factor how much you have in your wort/beer, like quality if malt, type of malt, vigorousness of fermentation and lagering. Or you can sometimes cover small amounts of it with other malt flavors, yeast flavors, or fruit additions.

I normally do a 90 minute boil, especially for light colored beers. It only costs my 0.5 gallon more water for a 5 gallon batch and 30 minutes more boil time and it insures me against 5 gallons of creamed corn beer.

But I did make an excellent hefe with 50% pilsner malt and using a 60 minute boil.

 

[Calichusetts]

Most posts have made the valid points but also consider this. A 90 minute boil allows you to get more done. Bottle a batch, keg, etc. I hate 60 minute boils now because I feel they go too quick. I don't have time to transfer a batch, dry hop, etc. Just a thought. Your brew day is longer but you get more brewing related events completed if you catch my drift.

Also, in terms of carmelization, consider taking part of your first runnings and boiling down to syrup next to the boil. I have dropped caramel malts completely from many of my recipes. The taste and aroma are amazing but the sweetness is very little.

 

[Oginme]

I normally plan my recipes around a 90 minutes boil with hop additions starting at 60 minutes. This allows me to alter the initial time of the boil if my wort gravity is a bit off to compensate and add the 60 minute hop addition at the same gravity reading each time. Usually, if I am off at all, it is a volume collection issue anyway, so in the end I am adding hops for a set time at a known gravity reading on a fairly consistent amount of boiling wort.

 

[FuriousE]

All good points! Depending on when I am brewing, I either don't mind a longer brew day, or I am trying to go as fast as possible without making compromises. If I'm brewing during the week, its after the kids go to bed, so I don't have too much time before I need to go to bed as well! In those instances, the faster the better. Brew in a bag, 60 minute boil, etc.

If I'm doing it on the weekend, I can afford for it to go a little longer. I'm intrigued by the idea of reducing down some first runnings... I'm going to be making an Oktoberfest soon and trying my hand at a decoction (obviously will not be a short brew day!) but I may try that next!!

 

[william_shakes_beer]

everybody has their own experience, I offer mine as a separate data point with no representations, conclusions or recommendations. I have about 35 brews under my belt, mostly all grain. I always bring the wort to a boil with the lid on, then remove the lid once a boil is acheived, turn the gas down to a full but not feroceous boil and boil for 1 hour, loosing about 1 gallon in my 15 gallon boilermaker. I have never encountered DMS, which I understand to be a taste similar to cooked corn.