60 min. vs. 90 min. Boil?

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drayman86

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Going to try this recipe on Friday, which calls for a 90 minute boil. Since all the grains I'm using are pretty well modified I'm going to skip the protein rest and do a simple one-step mash with typical mashout. System is 10 gallon AG w/ igloo cooler for tun. We typically run at about 75-80% efficiency.

Question: Any problems with only doing a 60 min. boil? I understand the intent of the boil for protein precipitation and wort concentration, but what's the trade-off of doing 90 min. vs. 60 min?

Thanks as always. :mug:
 

PseudoChef

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With that recipe, it seems the only thing will be a different utilization of the 90 minute addition. You may need to adjust the amount of Northern Brewer up to compensate for only a 60 min.
 

the_bird

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The only two times I do a 90-minute boil are:

1. Pilsner malt; it's got lots of DMS precursors, so to prevent any issues with DMS in the finished beer, a 90-minute boil drives them off.

2. Big beers with lots of wort collected, where I need to concentrate the wort down (as you noted).

You get a little bit more hop efficiency boiling for 90 minutes instead of 60, but it's a very small difference (easier and cheaper, when factoring in energy costs, to add in an extra quarter-ounce of hops).
 

bradsul

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Since there is no pilsner malt, my guess is the 90 minute boil is either for creating maillard reactions and some carmelization of the wort, or simply for volume reduction. If it were me and I wanted to stay true to the recipe
I'd do the 90 minute boil. I read somewhere (maybe even on here) that after 60 minutes you can't extract any more bitterness from a hops addition so 90 minutes isn't necessary for that reason alone.

It's your beer though. ;)
 

the_bird

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bradsul said:
I read somewhere (maybe even on here) that after 60 minutes you can't extract any more bitterness from a hops addition so 90 minutes isn't necessary for that reason alone.
I set up a simple recipe with an ounce of Chinook in BeerSmith (and ten pounds of base malt). 60 minute boil was equal to 48.4 IBUs, 90 minute boil was 51.8 IBUs. Now, I do not trust those formulas wholly - but that increase corresponds pretty closely to my understanding of the impact of a longer boil.

Incidentally, you can get the same impact on a 60-minute boil by adding an additional sixteenth of an ounce of the Chinook bittering addition.
 

bradsul

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the_bird said:
I set up a simple recipe with an ounce of Chinook in BeerSmith (and ten pounds of base malt). 60 minute boil was equal to 48.4 IBUs, 90 minute boil was 51.8 IBUs. Now, I do not trust those formulas wholly - but that increase corresponds pretty closely to my understanding of the impact of a longer boil.

Incidentally, you can get the same impact on a 60-minute boil by adding an additional sixteenth of an ounce of the Chinook bittering addition.
I know the math will continue calculating, but it was my understanding that after 60 minutes, all of the alpha acids you can get out of the hops have been extracted. I wish I could remember where I read that, I will have to do some poking around.
 

the_bird

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After a certain point, it's moot (which is basically my argument). You run into the issue of hop acids basically becoming "saturated" in solution as you near 100 IBUs (probably well before then). There's also the issue of few, if any, people being able to tell the difference between 52 and 48 IBUs.
 

bradsul

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the_bird said:
After a certain point, it's moot (which is basically my argument). You run into the issue of hop acids basically becoming "saturated" in solution as you near 100 IBUs (probably well before then). There's also the issue of few, if any, people being able to tell the difference between 52 and 48 IBUs.
I quite agree; however it's an academic issue now and I want to know. :D
 
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drayman86

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Thanks for the replies and ensuing discussion.

I adjusted the hop amounts in Beersmith to achieve the recipe's target IBU's, so I believe I'll stick to a 60 min. boil, mainly for time considerations and propane conservation.
 

Beerrific

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bradsul said:
I know the math will continue calculating, but it was my understanding that after 60 minutes, all of the alpha acids you can get out of the hops have been extracted. I wish I could remember where I read that, I will have to do some poking around.
I know this isn't an exact chart, but I think it sums it up nicely. Also, I believe that the most common IBU formulas (Rager, Tinseth) take the shape of this curve into account.
 

david_42

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I can't see any reason, except volume reduction. The roast and chocolate will be the dominate flavors, so the additional caramelization might be a plus.

[I wouldn't use Cascades in a Porter, but that's a personal preference.]
 

bradsul

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Beerrific said:
I know this isn't an exact chart, but I think it sums it up nicely. Also, I believe that the most common IBU formulas (Rager, Tinseth) take the shape of this curve into account.
I think this is similar to what I saw. Though I seem to recall it being weighted much higher at the 60 minute mark (making it pretty much 100%) - the effect is basically the same given the flat curve after that point anyway.
 

the_bird

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bradsul said:
I think this is similar to what I saw. Though I seem to recall it being weighted much higher at the 60 minute mark (making it pretty much 100%) - the effect is basically the same given the flat curve after that point anyway.
That's clearly being reflected in the BeerSmith calcs I ran as well. Very small increase from that point forward, not one that's worth futzing around with IMO. I know I've heard this discussed on a podcast somewhere, too.
 

the_bird

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As per BYO...

For pellets the maximum utilization is around 35 percent for a 60- to 90-minute boil.
For leaf hops the maximum utilization is 28 to 30 percent for a 60- to 90-minute boil.
Palmer has a really nice table of utilization versus wort gravity and time here.

(Damn, I'm bored this morning... just waiting for the cable company to show up :mad:)
 

bradsul

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the_bird said:
...Palmer has a really nice table of utilization versus wort gravity and time here.

(Damn, I'm bored this morning... just waiting for the cable company to show up :mad:)
I wrote up Palmers utilization formula into my brewing software so I should have known about that one. :eek: I guess I was showing my loyalty though because I was only searching HBT when I was looking this morning. :D
 
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