5500w element taking a long time to heat

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Birkin7

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I have a Brew Boss DIY kit. I have a 5500w 240v heating element. It is wired like the attached file. I've been doing wet test runs. Everything seems OK except the time it takes to reach temp. Starting with 60 water and the ambient temp is aprox 60 It is taking 1 hour to increase the water temp by 75 degrees. I have the lid on the kettle and the pump running. I've checked the output voltage from the control panel and it seem correct mearsure with a voltmeter hot to hot terminal 220v and hot to neutral 120v. What am I missing. Where should I begin to look. Thanks in advance

30a-BrewBoss-Electric-1.jpg
 
I'm not to familiar with the Brew Boss, I would check to see what kind of duty cycle your running through your SSR to the element. It should be 100% if just starting to heat like you described.

You can also eliminate the ssr completely to the element and just run through your contactor. See how fast it heats up with that condition. Your element would just be on 100% of the time, but that would tell you if its just the element.
 
Facinerous said:
I'm not to familiar with the Brew Boss, I would check to see what kind of duty cycle your running through your SSR to the element. It should be 100% if just starting to heat like you described.

You can also eliminate the ssr completely to the element and just run through your contactor. See how fast it heats up with that condition. Your element would just be on 100% of the time, but that would tell you if its just the element.
Click to expand...

I think checking the ssr duty cycle is a great idea. On my HERMS rig I heat the mash and HLT concurrently and it takes me about 1.5 hours total to bring 14g and 6-9g up to around 150F.
 
Are you sure the controller is supplying 220VAC to the element? 120VAC at the element would really cramp your style. If the wiring is correct, then your controller is somehow at fault, and I'm not familiar with the Brew Boss.
 
Theoretically it should take 15 minutes. Are you sure you haven't wired a neutral instaid of a hot to one side of the element1 socket? Have you checked the Hot - Hot voltage at the socket?
 
The duty cycle is at 100%
I may have wired something wrong. I will recheck it in the morning before I go to work.
I'll report back tomorrow
 
looking at your drawing....your element plug looks like it is wired bizzare. Typically, I think, the 'crooked' contact is ground and the other two are hot a and hot b. then again if you were running a hot side out to where you thought you had a ground connection, I would expect you to pop a circuit. I would definitely check by measuring the resistance across the two expected hot sides of the element and verify on the power side you are getting the correct voltage.
-J
 
Measure the voltage across the element (carefully) when it is on. It should be just a few volts less than your source. If it is, either measure the current running through it if you have the equipment, or measure its resistance (without any upstream circuits closed).
 
I couldn't leave it alone. After rechecking my work. jjjfrench is right the plug was wired wrong I move the 2 wires and its already boiling

Thanks :ban:
 
Birkin7 said:
I couldn't leave it alone. After rechecking my work. jjjfrench is right the plug was wired wrong I move the 2 wires and its already boiling

Thanks :ban:
Click to expand...

Glad it's working, but if it didn't trip the GFCI when it was wired incorrectly, then you have a serious problem, and that is that your GFCI protection is non-existant. You should figure out why this is the case before using your equipment. Your schematic is odd in that it doesn't show any ground coming in from the GFCI. Is it actually wired that way?

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
Glad it's working, but if it didn't trip the GFCI when it was wired incorrectly, then you have a serious problem, and that is that your GFCI protection is non-existant. You should figure out why this is the case before using your equipment. Your schematic is odd in that it doesn't show any ground coming in from the GFCI. Is it actually wired that way?

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...

This is an old thread but incase new electric brewers read it I offer this:
Contrary to popular belief, a GFCI doesn't actually check current to Earth Ground. It actually uses a differential current comparator to test the current flow through the device. In a 120 v GFCI, it compares the current leaving the Hot terminal of the device going to the load with the current returning through the Neutral terminal. If there is a small milliamp difference, the device trips.
This is important because if you put your self on the Hot and Neutral of the device, the current that is killing you is the same in as it is out. So the device will not trip!!! It is assumed that if there is a difference of the current in and out, there may be a path to ground. There is NO WAY to detect terminal to terminal as you just become part of the "Load". The "Test" button typically creates a current difference by shorting the HOT terminal to Earth Ground though a 15k ohm resistor.

A 220 v GFCI works much the same. It test the differential current between the Red phase A terminal with the current through the Black (or Blue) phase B terminal. It trips if there is a small milliamp difference. If you put yourself between the phase terminals, you are part of the Load and the device WILL NOT TRIP!!!! Again the assumption is that if there is a current difference it is to Earth Ground. But like the 110v version IT DOES NOT TEST CURRENT TO GROUND!!!
In a 120/240 v GFCI the current through the phase terminals AND the Neutral current are summed and compared, So if you use 120 v to neutral from one or the other phase terminals, the difference phase to phase is compared to the return current in the Neutral terminal. If they "Sum" there is no fault. SO.... if you put yourself between the phases or a Phase and Neutral, you are part of the load current and the device will not trip!!!

GFCI's are really a great safety improvement and nothing electrical should be used around liquids without one. It is just very important for you to understand what they DO and DO NOT test so as you are building and testing your equipment, you don't hurt yourself because of an incorrect assumption!!

Enjoy and Safe!

Pat
 
PiratePointBrewer said:
This is important because if you put your self on the Hot and Neutral of the device, the current that is killing you is the same in as it is out. So the device will not trip!!!
Click to expand...

The 1ø device consists of a core through which the neutral and hot wires pass. If current flowing out the hot wire is equal to the return current the magnetic fields they produce are equal in magnitude but opposite in direction so they cancel. No voltage is induced in the sense coil (multiple turns wound around the core) and the device does not trip. Now if you touch the hot and are not completely isolated from ground current will flow through you to ground and return to the panel. Thus the current in the neutral is not equal to the current in the hot and the device trips. If you touch the hot and the neutral most of the current through you will return through the neutral but some will return through the shunting ground path unless you are completely isolated from ground. Note that I said 'isolated', not insulated and did that because reactive current can flow through the capacitance between you and ground even though you are completely insulated. GFCI's (which are called Earth Leakage Circuit Breakers elsewhere in the world) are set to trip on very small leakages (imbalances) for this reason, say 5 ma. If the shunt path through ground carries 5 ma or more the breaker will trip.

You, must not, of course, rely on a GFCI/ELCB to save you if you put one hand on hot and the other on neutral. Standing on a dry rubber mat in rubber soled shoes may not allow enough leakage current to flow. Of course your other hand should be in your back pocket when working with electricity (saved me once).

Should you find yourself contacting hot and neutral and the breaker does not trip because of ground path impedance which is too high and you are unable to release yourself should you have the presence of mind to remember this the strategy would be to get part of yourself into contact with the protective ground circuit which should be connected to the shell of any nearby electrical equipment. For example, the kettles should be connected to the protective ground circuit. It is low impedance to the panel and the ELCB should trip.
 
ajdelange said:
The 1ø device consists of a core through which the neutral and hot wires pass. If current flowing out the hot wire is equal to the return current the magnetic fields they produce are equal in magnitude but opposite in direction so they cancel. No voltage is induced in the sense coil (multiple turns wound around the core) and the device does not trip. Now if you touch the hot and are not completely insulated from ground current will flow through you to ground and return to the panel. Thus the current in the neutral is not equal to the current in the hot and the device trips. If you touch the hot and the neutral most of the current through you will return through the neutral but some will return through the shunting ground path unless you are completely isolated from ground. Note that I said 'isolated', not insulated and did that because reactive current can flow through the capacitance between you and ground even though you are completely insulated. GFCI's (which are called Earth Leakage Circuit Breakers elsewhere in the world) are set to trip on very small leakages (imbalances) for this reason, say 5 ma. If the shunt path through ground carries 5 ma or more the breaker will trip.

You, must not, of course, rely on a GFCI/ELCB to save you if you put one hand on hot and the other on neutral. Standing on a dry rubber mat in rubber soled shoes may not allow enough leakage current to flow. Of course your other hand should be in your back pocket when working with electricity (saved me once).
Click to expand...

And dont forget when it comes to electricity, you should always use your right hand to touch anything since if current passes through it , the current wil not pass directly through your heart as it would with your left increasing your survival chances. (so says the safety quiz's I am required to take every 6 months.. ;) )
 
Always use your right hand, yes, and put the other hand behind your back!

Getting a path from hand to hand is infinitely worse than the left hand touch. Wear shoes with insulating soles around water to as you don't want the path to the floor either. Two Pole GFCI on 240V, one on 115V..

Do all of these and it's all very safe.. probably safer than propane...
 
PiratePointBrewer said:
This is an old thread but incase new electric brewers read it I offer this:
Contrary to popular belief, a GFCI doesn't actually check current to Earth Ground. It actually uses a differential current comparator to test the current flow through the device. In a 120 v GFCI, it compares the current leaving the Hot terminal of the device going to the load with the current returning through the Neutral terminal. If there is a small milliamp difference, the device trips.
This is important because if you put your self on the Hot and Neutral of the device, the current that is killing you is the same in as it is out. So the device will not trip!!! It is assumed that if there is a difference of the current in and out, there may be a path to ground. There is NO WAY to detect terminal to terminal as you just become part of the "Load". The "Test" button typically creates a current difference by shorting the HOT terminal to Earth Ground though a 15k ohm resistor.

A 220 v GFCI works much the same. It test the differential current between the Red phase A terminal with the current through the Black (or Blue) phase B terminal. It trips if there is a small milliamp difference. If you put yourself between the phase terminals, you are part of the Load and the device WILL NOT TRIP!!!! Again the assumption is that if there is a current difference it is to Earth Ground. But like the 110v version IT DOES NOT TEST CURRENT TO GROUND!!!
In a 120/240 v GFCI the current through the phase terminals AND the Neutral current are summed and compared, So if you use 120 v to neutral from one or the other phase terminals, the difference phase to phase is compared to the return current in the Neutral terminal. If they "Sum" there is no fault. SO.... if you put yourself between the phases or a Phase and Neutral, you are part of the load current and the device will not trip!!!

GFCI's are really a great safety improvement and nothing electrical should be used around liquids without one. It is just very important for you to understand what they DO and DO NOT test so as you are building and testing your equipment, you don't hurt yourself because of an incorrect assumption!!

Enjoy and Safe!

Pat
Click to expand...
The OP indicated that they had swapped ground and one of the hots on the socket/plug for the heating element. That would definitely have caused a current imbalance that should have tripped a correctly configured GFCI. The fact that they were able to operate the element for an extended time indicates there is no GFCI protection for the panel.

Brew on :mug:
 
WOW I got busy at work and didn't have a chance to look at this. Thanks everyone for the responses.

I did not have the GFCI in use when I was testing it. I ordered an inline GFCI but it was on back order. It arrived Friday thankfully. I will be using it from now on. It was stupid to test with out it.
 
Birkin7 said:
WOW I got busy at work and didn't have a chance to look at this. Thanks everyone for the responses.

I did not have the GFCI in use when I was testing it. I ordered an inline GFCI but it was on back order. It arrived Friday thankfully. I will be using it from now on. It was stupid to test with out it.
Click to expand...

Have any pictures of your panel wiring and setup to add on? And do you happen to have your parts list or shipping manifest?
 
I don't have any pics right now. My computer in the garage I uses has a full hard drive. This weekend project install new SSD boot drive in it.

I used a diagram from another DIY Brew Boss post I found here. (ill try to find it for you) FYI the diagram has an error as talked about above.

I don't think Darin at Brew-Boss is offering a DIY kit anymore. At least I don't see it on the website. To be honest I won't buy the DIY kit again I rather just buy the controller preassymbled. The only thing that I really prefer is mine has a kill switch for the heating element.

Heres why I think the kill switch is great. My andriod tablet died, So I put Brew boss on my wifes Ipad. The Ipad is NOT recommended for the brew boss software. I now know why. Their is a huge delay in the commands. during the boil I tried to lower the temp but was unable to do it fast enough. I almost had a boil over but lucky I had the kill switch. Turn off the element and everything was ok.

The only reason I bought the DIY kit was that my wife is allowing me to bring my beer stuff inside. She is redecorating with a vintage industrial look. I have an old test tube tester that I'm going to use as the enclosure once I'm happy with how it all work.
 
Birkin7 said:
during the boil I tried to lower the temp but was unable to do it fast enough. I almost had a boil over but lucky I had the kill switch. Turn off the element and everything was ok.
Click to expand...


With the brew boss when you start your boil just keep spraying it with water until the boil detect function in the software detects that a boil has been reached and reduces the power to level you set in the preferences. No need to manually adjust the temp during the brew. Also, the Brew-Boss controller has a kill switch as well.
 
Snicklefritz said:
With the brew boss when you start your boil just keep spraying it with water until the boil detect function in the software detects that a boil has been reached and reduces the power to level you set in the preferences. No need to manually adjust the temp during the brew.
Click to expand...
Doesn't having to stand over it and spray kind of defeat the purpose (automation) of Brew-Boss?
I've been strongly considering it as a major time saver: If I can just come back a couple times when it beeps and pull the basket, throw in hops, put in immersion chiller, etc, it is worth the premium over a basic PID/panel.
 
I leave it for almost every part of the process. You need to be there when its starts to reach its boil to prevent a boil over but other than that its fairly hands off. When I'm doing a 5G batch in the 20g kettle I don't even have to worry about boilovers.
 
Snicklefritz said:
I leave it for almost every part of the process. You need to be there when its starts to reach its boil to prevent a boil over but other than that its fairly hands off. When I'm doing a 5G batch in the 20g kettle I don't even have to worry about boilovers.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that note -- for 5gal batch in 20gal kettle, are you using the false bottom+bag, or the COFI mesh basket? batch size flexibility is nice to know about
 
I personally think the COFI is too expensive although they aren't really marked up much from the actual costs. I had the company that manufacturers the COFI for the Brew-Boss make me my own SS basket like the COFI but without the lid. I made mine a bit wider and taller than the COFI so I can accommodate more grain and since there is no lid I added a press plate to squeeze the grains after the mash. My basket is also 500u while I believe the COFI is 800u. I made my own COFI style sparge arm from some copper that I attach to the accessory port after putting the grain basket in.
 
augiedoggy said:
And dont forget when it comes to electricity, you should always use your right hand to touch anything since if current passes through it , the current wil not pass directly through your heart as it would with your left increasing your survival chances. (so says the safety quiz's I am required to take every 6 months.. ;) )
Click to expand...

That sort of "knowledge" is dangerous because it does not educate you in practice, at all. Electricity doesn't kill you, current does. High voltage doesn't kill you, current does. I have been shocked with 25,000 volts over 1000 times in my life and I'm still alive and kicking because the current was so small.

Current will likely flow through your heart if you touch current with either hand and the other hand is grounded.

And it is also just as dangerous to let current flow through your brain - for example having your head grounded and touching current anywhere on your body.

Finally, the frequency of the current matters. 0 hertz frequency (DC) is about half as dangerous as 50 or 60 hertz frequency (AC).
 

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