240 Electrical Question

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juvinious

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I am currently putting together this power distribution board to power several heatsticks in the apartment I moved into recently.
However I've run into an issue with the receptacle.

My receptacle is 10-50R and if you take a look at the above setup, it requires the 2 hots, neutral and ground to be wired up. I know sometime in the 90's that they changed the code from 3 wire to 4 wire connections and I can only assume that since the appliance is old they never upgraded the receptacle to 14-50R. If you open up most old appliances the ground and neutral are usually bonded, but from what I've come to understand from several sites is that it is unsafe and could cause the appliance to become hot.

My question is, since I can't change the receptacle would I be able redirect the ground elsewhere and ground it within the box and wire it up with just the 2 hots and neutral in a 10-50P male plug? Will this cause issues with the GFCI?

Any light on this subject or help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.
 

conpewter

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I'm not an electrician or anything but I imagine you should be able to run a separate ground wire to the box itself (assuming it is metal and grounded etc) just like you would do if you had one of those adapters (110V) that adapts a 2 prong to 3 prong, you generally are supposed to tie the extra green wire on those to the screw for the faceplate, thus grounding it to the box.

I haven't had experience with what you are working with though, I bought a 4 prong outlet when I did my 240V electric rig build. I'd suggest asking a local electrician if you know any.
 
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juvinious

juvinious

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I'm not really finding any clear answers on the net regarding this situation and I don't personally know any electricians. I'll keep the search on until I can get some clear answers before I try anything out. Thanks.
 

phred_02

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If you open up an electrical panel, you will notice that the neutral bar and the ground bar are either the same, or tied together.

Most 240 devices have no need for a neutral. The ground is just for safety and the two out of phase hots will provide the 240.

However in your case it appears that you are actually using the 240 to produce two different 110 circuits. So in your case, you need two hots and a neutral. (again read above, in most cases, ground and neutral are the same). Just use a meter to verify that you have 110 between either hot and the neutral/ground. In most area code permits the installation of ground fault outlets without a ground wire, as they will still trip appropriately.

Steve
 

Bernie Brewer

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Where the F*** did you find that tutorial?

I recommend finding a better, less hazardous way to power your heatsticks. What that guy is doing is taking wire and devices that are only rated for 15 amps and putting them on a circuit that is protected by a 30 amp breaker. That is illegal, and just asking for a fire.
 

Spot29er

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That is a really bad idea. I have been an electrician for 21 years. I have seen people try and do things like you are describing and it never ends well. Your best bet is to add a new 4 wire circuit with the proper sized wire and device. Anything else and you are asking for problems.
 

snazzy

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I can see putting a cord and plug on a board with a 4 circuit sub panel with breakers for controlling an outlet for each hot stick, but don't do what they did.
 

BrewBeemer

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All I can say is WOW!
This is proof there are people out there that create
off the wall do it yourself butcher jobs that are fire hazards
and death traps. They are proud of their work also. Just think
how many more are built that have not been posted. Sorry I will
not reply as mentioning the word NEC Code Book as in the past I
have been reamed out by certain members on this forum.

You should read the final fire reports after a house or building has
burned down after all the evidence has been collected by the fire investigators.
Then the insurance companies have the great pleasure
of denying a claim on homeowners that have performed non to code
wiring standards jobs.

I stayed away from Ding-Bat work, saw enough stupidity on my off hours.
Industrial then commercial only if I was hungry but never had any time off.

One reply about neutrals and grounds are the same was enough for me.
Best of luck with your project, do it correctly and be safe. A proud 30 year IBEW member here.
 

snazzy

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Yea, 12 year IBEW member and living in a farming community the first thing that came to mind was a farmer with enough knowledge to be dangerous.

I have had more than 1 person tell me that it does not have to be right to work. Hows that for logic.:(
 

impetus19

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Not an electrician but trying to be constructive to the OP. Here is a question to the electricians in the audience..

Would installing a sub breaker box with the correct 15 amp breakers be a viable option?
 

Bernie Brewer

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Not an electrician but trying to be constructive to the OP. Here is a question to the electricians in the audience..

Would installing a sub breaker box with the correct 15 amp breakers be a viable option?
Already been suggested by snazzy in post #7.:)
 
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juvinious

juvinious

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Good information.
I appreciate all the feedback as this a good eye opener, thus why I asked before going any further. So now back to the drawing board and figuring out how to power my sticks without compromising code and most importantly safety.
Thank you.
 

BrewBeemer

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220, 221...what ever it takes.
Strange I see is 242.3 volts on average on the 24 hour voltage recorder.

Your readings are 90.79% and 91.20%, that's right at the line voltage correction limit on my Miller Tig machine. I'm surprised the line division did not change the taps on the pig to correct for your low voltage problem.
 

BrewBeemer

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The best one's i've seen is when a homeowner split the electric range plug into two 20 amp circuits and covered the splice box with mud and used #12 of the 60 amp two pole range feed, breakers were still bridged and 60 amp. The family room was pulling 34 amps you could locate the romex by the warm spot along the wall the full length of the family room addition. I found it odd one night for him to have the VCR, TV, back yard flood lights and two 1,500watt portable heaters on all on one 120 volt circuit. I had to ask. After feeling the warm wall I told my friend his new to him house of less than a week had problems needing looking into ASAP. And it passed a home inspection including an electrical inspection. My friend got a free rewiring job as well new sheetrock walls. My town is old and has houses from the 1880's that pre date electricity with many gas lamps still in the attic. Early electricity houses the plugs were reversed polarity as well lights hot full time in the ceiling they switched the neutral. Try a hot splice laying over some old gas light lines and get hit while in the hot attic and your best little pocket friend is across a gas pipe going to ground. Great balls of fire. I pulled #16 extension cord out from under carpets in my 1905 rental at the start of my remodel, that was tapped onto knob & tube protected by 30 amp Edison fuses.
Do you see a pattern why I stay away from residential work, neighibors are the worse yype and cheap. I'll show them my license as a splicer for 12,000 volts not 120 this ends the asking for favors. Hell i'm now retarded I mean retired and seen enough of the trade.
 
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juvinious

juvinious

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This morning I went through what connections I had in the kitchen. There are two outlets on separate 20amp single pole breakers in close proximity of each other. Both had 15amp receptacles and were connected via 12 gauge wire. So I upgraded them to gfci 20amp receptacles. Tested both with my 2 heatsticks and everything works well. Now I don't need to use some wack job of a hack.

I'm glad I asked you guys about the above project, saving me from a hazardous situation and I can't thank you guys enough.

Cheers.
 

wilserbrewer

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Sounds good, I might suggest marking one stick and the corresponding cord w/ electrical tape or other obvious method. You would be surprised how easy it is to mistakenly energize an element when using two identical elements / cords. Don't ask how I know.
 

BrewBeemer

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Well it sounds like your house isn't that old and has multiple circuits feeding the kitchen vs older homes with one at best. How did they know 60-80 years ago that we would have all these new modern appliances like microwaves and coffee makers and allowing for this by adding seperate circuits? Spending the extra money on 20 vs 15 amp GFI's was a good call. On your cords feeding your heat sticks make sure they are the correct wire gauge to handle the amperage required of them. The only other suggestion about the cords is do not go over the top in the cord length as you'll get "VD", not the one that you'll need a doctor, "Voltage Drop". The only cure is to go up a wire gauge in cord size as there are length limits before you start to have reduced heating ability that meaning less wattage for your heating. This is what you do not want, I would get the correct cord for the job like "SOO" cord. I'll shut up now.
 
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