1st BIAB completed

[Pataka]

After spending the last few years brewing only extract beers (some pre-hopped, some from base LME or DME) I decided it was about time I tried all grain. A few things helped sway me. Recently I went to an expo where there was a grainfather stand, which got me thinking maybe that's something I ought to think about. But I decided I'd try the concept first, to see if the results were better than extract by enough orders of magnitude to justify the expense.

Then a few weeks back I was watching a Youtube video, and someone mentioned the 'extract twang'. That was it for me. No more convincing needed. I'd had that issue with a lot of my extract beers - perhaps due to the age of the LME, but the cause didn't matter. I was ready to try an AG brew.

I made a 2.5 gal batch (I'm a stovetop brewer), which was a SMaSH pale ale with NZ Cascade hops, NZ Pale Ale malt, and Safale US-05. Having watched so many youtube vids on all grain brewing it made it so much easier. The total time was about 4 hours from start to finish.

What worked well
The overall adoption of the new process
The fact I managed to get 2.5 gal to a boil on my stovetop (I wasn't sure)
The lack of overall 'ordeal' in comparison to an extract brew with a boil

What could have been improved
What went into the fermenter was too strong, and too little. I added water, but because my brother had just arrived I was in a rush to get it finished, and didn't compute the fact that I was only working with 2.5 gal, so added more water than I should have. The OG ended up at 1.041, which is lower than I'd hoped.
The calculation I used for my strikewater temp was a little higher than it actually needed to be, and my mash ended up at about 70 degrees (celsius), not the 68 I was aiming for. I'm not really sure how to avoid this in future. I hoped that by using a calculator I would take the variable out of the mix.
I added the grain too fast into the boil kettle, and it took a long time to stir and break up the dough balls. On reflection, however, this was rather fortunate as the stirring time would have helped it lose more heat.

All things considered, I found the experience really enjoyable and will most definitely be doing it again. It's also been great experiencing what is, in my opinion, one of the most rewarding parts of brewing - seeing the fermentation develop - on a brew that came into my house as nothing more than crushed grain.

 

[Sadu]

Glad your brew day went well.

I did my first all grain using NZ pale ale, NZ cascade and us-05 as well, though I had some crystal and carapils in there for good measure. Mine came out very nice, and it kept getting better with each bottle.

Almost all of my extract brews have the extract twang, with the exception being a Munich 'lager' kit made from expired malt extract (go figure). None of my AG brews have the twang.

 

[eadavis80]

After spending the last few years brewing only extract beers (some pre-hopped, some from base LME or DME) I decided it was about time I tried all grain. A few things helped sway me. Recently I went to an expo where there was a grainfather stand, which got me thinking maybe that's something I ought to think about. But I decided I'd try the concept first, to see if the results were better than extract by enough orders of magnitude to justify the expense.

Then a few weeks back I was watching a Youtube video, and someone mentioned the 'extract twang'. That was it for me. No more convincing needed. I'd had that issue with a lot of my extract beers - perhaps due to the age of the LME, but the cause didn't matter. I was ready to try an AG brew.

I made a 2.5 gal batch (I'm a stovetop brewer), which was a SMaSH pale ale with NZ Cascade hops, NZ Pale Ale malt, and Safale US-05. Having watched so many youtube vids on all grain brewing it made it so much easier. The total time was about 4 hours from start to finish.

What worked well
The overall adoption of the new process
The fact I managed to get 2.5 gal to a boil on my stovetop (I wasn't sure)
The lack of overall 'ordeal' in comparison to an extract brew with a boil

What could have been improved
What went into the fermenter was too strong, and too little. I added water, but because my brother had just arrived I was in a rush to get it finished, and didn't compute the fact that I was only working with 2.5 gal, so added more water than I should have. The OG ended up at 1.041, which is lower than I'd hoped.
The calculation I used for my strikewater temp was a little higher than it actually needed to be, and my mash ended up at about 70 degrees (celsius), not the 68 I was aiming for. I'm not really sure how to avoid this in future. I hoped that by using a calculator I would take the variable out of the mix.
I added the grain too fast into the boil kettle, and it took a long time to stir and break up the dough balls. On reflection, however, this was rather fortunate as the stirring time would have helped it lose more heat.

All things considered, I found the experience really enjoyable and will most definitely be doing it again. It's also been great experiencing what is, in my opinion, one of the most rewarding parts of brewing - seeing the fermentation develop - on a brew that came into my house as nothing more than crushed grain.

I do some BIAB's too. I find it more fun and "genuine" than extract brewing. I've had great beers with both methods, so I'm not sold that BIAB always yields a better product (I still think yeast count and fermentation temp trump anything in terms of how good the beer will be, besides recipe of course), but it is a lot of fun. Doesn't take much longer than an extract day either really. Instead of steeping grains for 20 minutes you're mashing for 60, so it really only adds about 40ish minutes to the day. Glad you enjoyed yourself and as you continue to do it, you'll learn your setup for yourself (strike water temp, amount of water, etc.). Continue to take notes, learn and have fun!

 

[RM-MN]

I do some BIAB's too. I find it more fun and "genuine" than extract brewing. I've had great beers with both methods, so I'm not sold that BIAB always yields a better product (I still think yeast count and fermentation temp trump anything in terms of how good the beer will be, besides recipe of course), but it is a lot of fun. Doesn't take much longer than an extract day either really. Instead of steeping grains for 20 minutes you're mashing for 60, so it really only adds about 40ish minutes to the day. Glad you enjoyed yourself and as you continue to do it, you'll learn your setup for yourself (strike water temp, amount of water, etc.). Continue to take notes, learn and have fun!

Try a 30 minute mash sometime. You may find that you can do an all grain batch in the same time as an extract batch.

 

[eadavis80]

Yeah, I've heard of people getting conversion in well under an hour. I guess when I do an all-grain day, I'm just in the mindset of not being in any kind of rush. Kind of like when I'm golfing 18 with good buddies and a few beers - couldn't care less if the pace of play is slow - sit back, sip a cold one, have a stoagie and chill.

 

[Pataka]

Almost all of my extract brews have the extract twang, with the exception being a Munich 'lager' kit made from expired malt extract (go figure). None of my AG brews have the twang.

Interesting. Most of mine have had it to some degree, but I've been able to reduce undesirable results through temperature control. I made a really nice Black Rock Waimea Pale Ale recently, with no twang whatsoever.

Recently I had some leftover Coopers Dark Ale LME that I had stored in the freezer and was past its use by, which I threw together and made a batch with recently under strict temperature control. It came out twangy as anything. That being said, I used my brew bucket which has only ever made one other batch, and it came out infected. I sterilised the heck out of it with bleach, starsan, and everything else under the sun, and also had left it almost a year before using it again (again, re-sterilising before I did) but you never know.

 

[mwm5461]

yeah, i've heard of people getting conversion in well under an hour. I guess when i do an all-grain day, i'm just in the mindset of not being in any kind of rush. Kind of like when i'm golfing 18 with good buddies and a few beers - couldn't care less if the pace of play is slow - sit back, sip a cold one, have a stoagie and chill.

100%

 

[RM-MN]

Yeah, I've heard of people getting conversion in well under an hour. I guess when I do an all-grain day, I'm just in the mindset of not being in any kind of rush. Kind of like when I'm golfing 18 with good buddies and a few beers - couldn't care less if the pace of play is slow - sit back, sip a cold one, have a stoagie and chill.

OK, that's cool. Do the 30 minute mash, boil the wort, then wait around drinking with the buddies while you do a no-chill cooling. It's likely to take 30 hours or more to cool so that leaves plenty of time to hang out.

 

[eadavis80]

OK, that's cool. Do the 30 minute mash, boil the wort, then wait around drinking with the buddies while you do a no-chill cooling. It's likely to take 30 hours or more to cool so that leaves plenty of time to hang out.

I always use a wort chiller as I don't have THAT MUCH time to kill, but I certainly don't rush my mash. Not that there is anything wrong with no-chill. I have done "snowbank chill" in the winter, but that takes a while too. Gotta' keep moving the kettle every 10 or so minutes and shovel new snow around it. Did it last winter - quite a little workout by the time that was pitchable. If I waited 30 hours to pitch my yeast I'd probably be too drunk by the time it was time to pitch and then forget. Three days later I'd be wondering why the airlock never moved!

 

[bruhaha]

I do some BIAB's too. I find it more fun and "genuine" than extract brewing. I've had great beers with both methods, so I'm not sold that BIAB always yields a better product (I still think yeast count and fermentation temp trump anything in terms of how good the beer will be, besides recipe of course), but it is a lot of fun. Doesn't take much longer than an extract day either really. Instead of steeping grains for 20 minutes you're mashing for 60, so it really only adds about 40ish minutes to the day. Glad you enjoyed yourself and as you continue to do it, you'll learn your setup for yourself (strike water temp, amount of water, etc.). Continue to take notes, learn and have fun!

I am a BIAB brewer and enjoy great beers with this method. I have most all the equipment for 3V brewing but all my buddies continually say why bother.

If I thought my beers would be even 5% or 10% better with 3V I'd shift with no hesitation. Just to get opinions, would my beers improve moving away from BIAB? I realize you were comparing extract to BIAB, so pardon me shifting gears.

 

[doug293cz]

I am a BIAB brewer and enjoy great beers with this method. I have most all the equipment for 3V brewing but all my buddies continually say why bother.

If I thought my beers would be even 5% or 10% better with 3V I'd shift with no hesitation. Just to get opinions, would my beers improve moving away from BIAB? I realize you were comparing extract to BIAB, so pardon me shifting gears.

I can't think of anything that is different about the two processes that would lead one to make better beer than the other. The difference is primarily how you separate the wort from the grain. What goes on in the mash can be made identical. If you have the equipment, and are curious, give 3 vessel a try. Personally, I'm not that curious. I don't think going 3 vessel would make my beer any better or worse.

Brew on

 

[meridianomrebel]

The May/June edition of Brew Your Own was dedicated to BIAB. After reading that, I'm more convinced than ever that not only is the BIAB method on the quality level of the standard three tier system, but surpasses the three tier in several ways.

 

[kh54s10]

I do 5 gallon batches on a 3 tier system. I am not set up to do 5 gallon BIAB. The few I have done were 3 or 4 gallon on the stove. Thus I don't have a great way to remove and drain the bag. If I did it might make me like BIAB more. But right now I much prefer using my 3 vessel system.

The main difference that I see is my 3 vessel beers clear much faster due to less fine grain particles getting to the fermenter. The beers end up the same.

meridianomrebel, what are the several ways that BIAB surpasses 3 tier? Less equipment is the only way that I can think of.

 

[bruhaha]

I can't think of anything that is different about the two processes that would lead one to make better beer than the other. The difference is primarily how you separate the wort from the grain. What goes on in the mash can be made identical. If you have the equipment, and are curious, give 3 vessel a try. Personally, I'm not that curious. I don't think going 3 vessel would make my beer any better or worse.

Brew on

Doug, based on these responses, it seems going 3V may be creating unnecessary work for no apparent quality boost. I grind my grain to a fine crush and get great eff% with no tannin extraction. I never worry about stuck sparges. I have a brew shed with exposed rafters to hang a chain which makes hoisting the spent grain bag easy and practical. If you see no real potential for 5-10% quality gains, I am good to stick with BIAB.

The May/June edition of Brew Your Own was dedicated to BIAB. After reading that, I'm more convinced than ever that not only is the BIAB method on the quality level of the standard three tier system, but surpasses the three tier in several ways.

Do you know if I can reference this article(s) being a non-subscriber to the magazine? Another BIAB plus+

I do 5 gallon batches on a 3 tier system. I am not set up to do 5 gallon BIAB. The few I have done were 3 or 4 gallon on the stove. Thus I don't have a great way to remove and drain the bag. If I did it might make me like BIAB more. But right now I much prefer using my 3 vessel system.

The main difference that I see is my 3 vessel beers clear much faster due to less fine grain particles getting to the fermenter. The beers end up the same.

meridianomrebel, what are the several ways that BIAB surpasses 3 tier? Less equipment is the only way that I can think of.

Since you are set up 3V, it would pain for you to shift as I see it. Since I am well established in BIAB, have all the kettles, gear, bags, etc, I am hearing y'all say don't worry about trying to go 3V. Point being, even though I have most of the major 3V components, it would be equally a pain for me to shift to 3V just as it would be for you to shift FROM 3V. If I could see lots of benefits, I'd not hesitate, but I don't hear the benefits. Additionally, I add gelatin as a fining agent when kegging, and I get commercial clarity quickly. But I see your point about protein haze in suspensions due to the finer particulate.

 

[meridianomrebel]

kh54s10 - the issue brought up some really good points that I really never would have thought of. Other than less equipment, which is always a time saver, I'll do a quick summary from the magazine below. I couldn't find a link to where you can read the article for free, so hopefully this will work just as well. The article that I really liked addressed three points concerning BIAB:

Efficiency
With the three tier system, you're doing a thick mash. With BIAB, you're mashing in with the full boil volume (unless your kettle is too small, then there is the sparge, but we'll go with no sparge). An article discussed how many brewers in Europe had been doing thin mashes for centuries, and most traditional German decoctions were done at water-to-grain ratios nearly identical to BIAB.
A study conducted by Kai Troester (Brakaiser.com) tested the impact of mash efficiency with mash thickness and found that with traditional mashes (3 tier) had average brewhouse efficiencies between 58-60%. He found that doubling the volume of water always produced a higher efficiency, which peaked at 68%. The study can be found here. Another study in Brigg's book "Brewing Science" also finds that a thinner mash produces greater efficiency.
All of that tends to make sense when I started to think about it, since your entire grain bed in BIAB is in contact with water for the entire time, where as in the 3 tier method, that may not always be the case.

Attenuation
Another section of the same article also addresses the thin beer/poor attenuation concerns with BIAB. However, experiments showed that BIAB products identical or even higher attenuation at higher water/grain ratios. This was especially true with mashing at higher temperature ranges around 158F.

Mash pH
This section did study the effects of pH and found that this is true - the mash pH is much more important with BIAB than the traditional three tier system, as you will have a much higher mash pH.

 

[eadavis80]

Don't know - I go pretty "ghetto" with my BIAB setup, but it's cheap, fairly quick and I produce beers I am happy to produce and share, so at this point, I am not seeking any more brewing equipment.

 

[bruhaha]

Meridianomrebel, Thanks for the BIAB summary. If is wasn't for BIAB, I would not be brewing today.

I started with extract in the 80's. Ingredients were very limited as was information. The internet was just getting started so information was limited to just a few books. I used a pre-hopped LME, fermented and bottled. I can't say how disappointed I felt with this process, so I all but stopped brewing.

Today, high quality and great selections of ingredients are plentiful, and lots of information is shared on sources like HBT. The home brewing community is a brotherhood/sisterhood of folks who are sharing and passionate about their successes. Equipment is commercial quality for home brewing, and kegging has replaced bottling in my home. I stay interested and excited about brewing, and look forward to every brew day. BIAB is simple and generally affordable to begin and easy to make great quality beers. Long past are the days of "extract twang" as stated by the OP. I can't agree more. Personally, I feel BIAB has made All Grain more interesting and enjoyable to folks like me who may have simply quit brewing otherwise.