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GabrielKnight

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1. Do you need to sanitise your hands if they need to come in contact with your grog eg. when shaking carboy with hand over top to degass? What sanitiser can I use while protecting my beautiful pinkys?

2. How long do sanitised utensils stay sanitised? Can you for example sanitise a hydrometer and leave it on a shelf for a couple of weeks before it is used?

3. Is there really any harm in using paper towels to dry sterilised equipment? Good quality kitchen roll would surely be cleaner than leaving equipment with water soaking up the dust in surrounding air?

4. Is it a good precaution to use brand new cork bungs for each brew?

5. Is it okay to clean, steralise and reuse a heavily soiled (from a previous brew) plastic polypin?

6. Can I use cheap vodka as a no rinse steriliser for small utensils? Does it matter if there is still some undried vodka on a hydrometer / thermometer / thief?

7. Is it safe to use Isopropyl alcohol?

8. Is Detol kitchen spray applied with kitchen roll good for wiping down work surfaces (says it kills 99.9% germs).

9. How long do you soak clean items in VMP?

10. How many times do you rinse?
 
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GabrielKnight

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Well, that's one way to bring a thread that took me 20 minutes to compose to a swift end, leaving no-one else to answer!

I've spent another 20 minutes reading the thread you suggested but it comprised of 8 pages that primarily dealt with discussions on the products one-step, starsan and idophor, two of which I have no access to and none of which I plan to use.

I can see that you are a very experienced member here, and undoubtedly have much more success in brewing than I do, but the questions I asked are important to me because 2 of my last 4 projects have had disappointing results despite me following sanitation and kit instructions to the letter.

I'm hoping that if my questions are answered, I can judge where I have been taking unneccesary risks and which of my methods I can discount as ok. Some of the questions are rather specific but if people are able to answer a few at a time, they will hopefully help others in the future too. Atb. :mug:
 

llazy_llama

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Are you in the US?

If so, you have access to Star San, One-Step, and Iodophor.

If you're planning on ad-libbing your sanitation, have fun with that. I hope you're a fan of sour beers.
 

SumnerH

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1. Do you need to sanitise your hands if they need to come in contact with your grog eg. when shaking carboy with hand over top to degass? What sanitiser can I use while protecting my beautiful pinkys?
Yes, you do. Sanitize a piece of saran wrap to hold over the top. If you need hands, put on rubber gloves and dip in sanitizer.

I've sanitized my hands directly in an emergency (in star-san, no problems) but that's not nearly as sanitary.

2. How long do sanitised utensils stay sanitised? Can you for example sanitise a hydrometer and leave it on a shelf for a couple of weeks before it is used?
No. The shelf isn't sanitized. Even if it was, airborne stuff is always floating around; the longer an item gets from sanitization, the higher the risk of infection. Sanitize immediately before using.

Personally, I'm okay with stuff sanitized up to maybe 10 minutes ahead of time that's been left exposed to the air. I'll sanitize a bucket earlier if I'm also sanitizing the lid and putting it back on top. Just leave things sitting in your bucket of sanitizer until you need them.

If you sanitize a closed-system (e.g sanitize bottles with aluminum foil covering the top) that's another story, since they're not exposed to the air or other unsanitized media.

3. Is there really any harm in using paper towels to dry sterilised equipment? Good quality kitchen roll would surely be cleaner than leaving equipment with water soaking up the dust in surrounding air?
Never rinse with unsanitized water. Use star-san or iodophor so that you don't need to rinse. As long as it's wet, it's covered in sanitizer and so it should be safe.

Definitely don't wipe with paper towels, you have no way to sanitize them safely.

4. Is it a good precaution to use brand new cork bungs for each brew?
Rubber stops air better and can be sanitized.

5. Is it okay to clean, steralise and reuse a heavily soiled (from a previous brew) plastic polypin?
Clean, sanitize, and reuse, yes. Sterilizing a plastic item is almost impossible (an autoclave/pressure cooker is just about the only home-sterilization method available, and it'd melt plastic).

6. Can I use cheap vodka as a no rinse steriliser for small utensils?
You need 80% concentration of alcohol for 45 seconds to sanitize. Your cheap vodka is likely 40% alcohol (80 proof) and way too low a concentration for sanitizing unless you have very, very long contact times (but it's not going to grow stuff on its own or harm already-sanitized stuff, so it's okay for filling airlocks and such).

Does it matter if there is still some undried vodka on a hydrometer / thermometer / thief?
No, people use it in airlocks all the time. Just don't use it to sanitize things.

7. Is it safe to use Isopropyl alcohol?
Safe how?

8. Is Detol kitchen spray applied with kitchen roll good for wiping down work surfaces (says it kills 99.9% germs).
Detol contains chloroxylenol, which is not safe to ingest

9. How long do you soak clean items in VMP?
What's VMP?

10. How many times do you rinse?
Never rinse an item once it's sanitized--your water is not sanitized. You could boil water to sanitize it and then use that to rinse, but that's a waste and you lose the protective aspect of having your equipment covered in a layer of wet sanitizer. Just use a good no-rinse sanitizer.
 

BioBeing

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1. Do you need to sanitise your hands if they need to come in contact with your grog eg. when shaking carboy with hand over top to degass? What sanitiser can I use while protecting my beautiful pinkys?
Wear gloves. Sanitize the gloves.

2. How long do sanitised utensils stay sanitised? Can you for example sanitise a hydrometer and leave it on a shelf for a couple of weeks before it is used?
They stay sanitized until they come in contact with microbes, or until the microbes that you did not kill the first time round (as you only sanitized, not sterilized) start to grow again. If you sanitize a spoon and put it down on an unsanitized work surface, you now have an unsanitized spoon. So, to your specific question: no.


3. Is there really any harm in using paper towels to dry sterilised equipment? Good quality kitchen roll would surely be cleaner than leaving equipment with water soaking up the dust in surrounding air?
Clean != sanitary.

4. Is it a good precaution to use brand new cork bungs for each brew?
Are you making wine? I'd say yes to this, but don't know.

5. Is it okay to clean, steralise and reuse a heavily soiled (from a previous brew) plastic polypin?
How can it be clean and heavily soiled at the same time? If you have cleaned it well and sanitized it, unless it is badly scratched, I'm sure you could use it.

6. Can I use cheap vodka as a no rinse steriliser for small utensils? Does it matter if there is still some undried vodka on a hydrometer / thermometer / thief?
Yes to the first, hardly to the second, unless you are tipping tons of vodka into your hydro sample.

7. Is it safe to use Isopropyl alcohol?
Questionable. IPA is not very toxic, but most of the stores round here at least put a green dye in it. Plus, it doesn't smell good. I wouldn't want it coming near anything I was going to injest.

8. Is Detol kitchen spray applied with kitchen roll good for wiping down work surfaces (says it kills 99.9% germs).
Yes. Again, you don't want to be getting detol into your beer/wine though. Isn't it pine scented? Yeuchh!

9. How long do you soak clean items in VMP?
What is VMP?

10. How many times do you rinse?
None. I use a no-rinse sanitizer. If you use bleach, you must rinse until you can no longer smell bleach. 2 to 3 times at least, I'd say. Avoid stuff like detol on things that you are going to injest.
 

SpanishCastleAle

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I only recently started using Starsan and used bleach up until then (I used Iodophor too but only for kegging). These are just my opinions and they may be wrong...but I wanted to at least try to answer your questions that you took the time to write.

1. Do you need to sanitise your hands if they need to come in contact with your grog eg. when shaking carboy with hand over top to degass? What sanitiser can I use while protecting my beautiful pinkys?
I use foil or plastic wrap to cover it and just deal with the minor spills/drips. Sanitizing your hand is better than not but your hand can't really get as sanitized as something like plastic wrap. Look at your fingers under a microscope...not really sanitizable.

2. How long do sanitised utensils stay sanitised? Can you for example sanitise a hydrometer and leave it on a shelf for a couple of weeks before it is used?
No you can't. It's prob dependant on a lot of things but you need to use stuff immediately after you sanitize it unless you're using a no-rinse sanitizer. With no-rinse sanitizers it's sanitized as long as it's wet with that sanitizer.

3. Is there really any harm in using paper towels to dry sterilised equipment? Good quality kitchen roll would surely be cleaner than leaving equipment with water soaking up the dust in surrounding air?
Probably not that big a deal but it's not really good practice. It's just another source of contamination. Try to keep those sources to a minimum.

4. Is it a good precaution to use brand new cork bungs for each brew?
Cork? I wouldn't use cork...only rubber. But if I did use cork I'd use new everytime. Not really familiar with cork bungs though.

5. Is it okay to clean, steralise and reuse a heavily soiled (from a previous brew) plastic polypin?
You can't sanitize something that's not clean. It MUST be totally clean FIRST...before you even think of sanitizing it. Don't think you can just 'sanitize the dirt'...you can't.

6. Can I use cheap vodka as a no rinse steriliser for small utensils? Does it matter if there is still some undried vodka on a hydrometer / thermometer / thief?
I don't see why not. A tiny bit on a small surface shouldn't hurt too much.

7. Is it safe to use Isopropyl alcohol?
You could prob get away with it if done right but I wouldn't risk it. The stuff is flammable and you have better options. Just say no...imo.

8. Is Detol kitchen spray applied with kitchen roll good for wiping down work surfaces (says it kills 99.9% germs).
Not familiar with that stuff but if that's what it is for and it's used correctly it couldn't hurt.

9. How long do you soak clean items in VMP?
Don't know what VMP is. I just started using PBW...and I'm kicking myself for not trying it earlier. Soak...rinse...that's how PBW rolls.

10. How many times do you rinse?
When I used bleach I rinsed the crap outta anything I sanitized...right before I filled/used it.
EDIT: I'm curious why you want a sterilized hydrometer. If you take a hydro sample before the boil it doesn't need to be sanitary because you're gonna boil it. If it is after boil throw the sample away...or better yet drink it...but do not ever return it to the wort/fermenter/beer.
 

Edcculus

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Are you in the US?

If so, you have access to Star San, One-Step, and Iodophor.

If you're planning on ad-libbing your sanitation, have fun with that. I hope you're a fan of sour beers.
Agreed. If you can't access Star San (outside of the US), at LEAST get some bleach. Some members here have been using diluted bleach for years. If you are in the US, don't close the door on a great product.
 

AFAJ Brew Guy

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Agreed. If you can't access Star San (outside of the US), at LEAST get some bleach. Some members here have been using diluted bleach for years. If you are in the US, don't close the door on a great product.
+1 Starsan and PBW are pretty much all you need. I use both of them and love it. Great products and easy to use.
 
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GabrielKnight

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Are you in the US?

If so, you have access to Star San, One-Step, and Iodophor.

If you're planning on ad-libbing your sanitation, have fun with that. I hope you're a fan of sour beers.
Not helpful llama. Like 95.5% of the world's population I don't live in the US, or want to. The world doesn't revolve around the 3 chems you have access to - people have been successfully brewing for thousands of years with their own traditions, making great beers that aren't "sour". You really need to understand that there is a much bigger, more diverse world out there.

Thank you so much to SumnerH, BioBeing, SpanishCastle Ale for taking the time to help me so much. Maybe I messed up big time by:
* leaving sanitised utensils too long
* using unsanitised hands to mix stuff
* using cork bungs (but won't rubber impart a car tyre flavour?!)

I guess I thought they didn't matter as everything seemed clean att, but I've learnt my lesson. My 48 pints of barley wine are great (glugging it now!), but my Riesling is useless, nasty.

Star prize box of chocs goes to SumnerH for recognising that Detol contains chloroxylenol, and that alcohol ideally needs to be 80% or more for fast sanitation. Thumbs up ; )

There's one more possibilty of what's ruining my grog - my copper probe. The off-flavours are a bit copperish maybe, but I don't munch a lot of that particular element, so can't be sure!:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/safety-copper-thermostat-probe-brew-108992/
 

SumnerH

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Like 95.5% of the world's population I don't live in the US, or want to.
If you'd mention where you live, that might help with answers--people brew all over the world and we might have someone who knows the best answers in your region.

You mentioned polypins, which might suggest you're in the UK; StarSan is certainly available over there. But unless you specify, it's a tough guess where you might be and what's around.

* using cork bungs (but won't rubber impart a car tyre flavour?!)
Rubber stoppers are synthetic these days, and are very stable. Your stopper shouldn't be touching your beer during fermentation, anyway, unless you have a really weird setup. But you also mention wine; someone else will be a better source of info for details about that.

I guess I thought they didn't matter as everything seemed clean att, but I've learnt my lesson. My 48 pints of barley wine are great (glugging it now!), but my Riesling is useless, nasty.
Wine takes a lot more time to age than beer (in case that's the problem).

There's one more possibilty of what's ruining my grog - my copper probe. The off-flavours are a bit copperish maybe, but I don't munch a lot of that particular element, so can't be sure!:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/safety-copper-thermostat-probe-brew-108992/
Copper is okay for beer before and during boil. Once you pitch yeast, avoid copper. I'll defer on wine knowledge to someone else.
 
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GabrielKnight

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If you'd mention where you live, that might help with answers--people brew all over the world and we might have someone who knows the best answers in your region.

You mentioned polypins, which might suggest you're in the UK; StarSan is certainly available over there. But unless you specify, it's a tough guess where you might be and what's around.

Rubber stoppers are synthetic these days, and are very stable. Your stopper shouldn't be touching your beer during fermentation, anyway, unless you have a really weird setup. But you also mention wine; someone else will be a better source of info for details about that.
Hi SumnerH,

As indicated in my previous msg, thank you again for being particularly helpful in all your answers - I did give you choc box award, lol! I have no raison d'etre to contradict the use of particular chems, but would like to put into perspectve that there is no one chem that will work for everyone, while unheard of chems might work better than expected. There are plenty of chems that will work effectively but almost all of my questions were related to the best ways to implement sterilasation, not products used.

I felt no immediate need to indicate that I'm from the UK because apart from questions 8 & 9, the questions are far reaching and can be applied internationally, relating to methods used, not choice of product.

Starsan is probably great, but I'm a perfectionist small scale boutique selller, so recognise that vodka could provide the same protection, chemical free. Please elaborate if it doesn't.
 

llazy_llama

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Not helpful llama. Like 95.5% of the world's population I don't live in the US, or want to. The world doesn't revolve around the 3 chems you have access to - people have been successfully brewing for thousands of years with their own traditions, making great beers that aren't "sour". You really need to understand that there is a much bigger, more diverse world out there.
Wait wait wait... people make beer outside of the US? No ****ing way. I just got back from Japan recently, and I was able to get those three chemicals there.
 

SumnerH

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I felt no immediate need to indicate that I'm from the UK because apart from questions 8 & 9, the questions are far reaching and can be applied internationally, ataining to methods not the choice of product.
This is pretty much true, but it's there's one general technique difference worth noting: If you don't have a no-rinse sanitizer, things are a bit more complicated to get really good sanitation.

In that case, you need to boil (or otherwise sanitize) water for rinsing and to use to rinse off your sanitized gear. This is such a PITA, in my opinion, that it's worth going out of your way to find a good no-rinse product. If not, at least keep a few (individually sealed) gallons of distilled water around to rinse with if you have an emergency need to sanitize something quickly. It's easy to plan ahead with boiled water for brew day, but much more painful to have something fall in a fermentor or whatever and just need a single item sanitized in a hurry.
 

farmbrewernw

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Despite for some reason thinking you don't need to use StarSan because it's a chemical, you should read up on it. It's actually an acid with a surfactant, it breaks down into a yeast nutrient. You could use vodka, and by all means go for it, but I bet you'll be spending a lot more on vodka and not being as liberal with it as you should. Also it's quite possible that something else is effecting your beers. We need to know more about your process.
 

SumnerH

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Starsan is probably great, but I'm a perfectionist so recognise that vodka could provide the same protection, chemical free. Please elaborate if it doesn't.
Vodka contains at least water and ethanol, two chemicals. If I had to guess I'd be inclined to believe that the chemicals in vodka are more dangerous than those in Star-San or Iodophor.

For instance, Star-San's primary component is phosphoric acid; once it's at regular pH levels it's very safe (and since it's in soda water, Coca Cola, etc, it's been studied for over a century in wide-spread human consumption, including very long-term consumption).

And iodophor's major component is iodine, which is actually necessary for human health--by the time it's been diluted for cleaning and then poured off and diluted by having 5+ gallons of beer on it, it's probably at much lower levels than what most countries add to their table salt in the effort to fight mental retardation, goiter, and other problems caused by lack of iodine.

More importantly, vodka's only 40% alcohol as I noted earlier; hence it's not a really effective sanitizer without prolonged exposure.
 

Edcculus

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No matter where you are in the world, you have access to some type of sanitizer. Vodka is not an effective sanitizer. You have to maintain a relatively long contact time to kill. Probably 10 minutes or more

Do you want to make beer, or the best beer possible? It seems like you are dedicated to quality work. Why not use the best products you can get. If you dont want to use Starsan, use bleach or even Iodophor (or equal iodine based sanitizer). I'm sure the Dairy industry there uses some sort of iodine sanitizer. These chemicals (starsan and iodophor) were originally made for the dairy and food service industry. The chemicals aren't going to hurt anything (except the bacteria and wild yeast!).
 
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GabrielKnight

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I'm more than willing to take the less sarcastic advices that non-rinse sterilisers could work better than rinsing with fresh water, with a few conditions.

For the sake of argument / devils advocate:

People have used MUCH worse than today's treated tap-water for ?6000 years with success. What percentage of brews were considered unacceptable with traditional techniques?

How is it that wine was adored by the masses in Jesus's time without StarSan that only appeared in the last few years?

I recognise that the current short-term thinking is that Starsan is the answer to everything. In the meantime, people have managed without it for milleniums, so I look for natural conclusions to age old theories.

<Vodka is not an effective sanitizer>
Does Vodka promote a new world order?!

It would be nice if there was a link to something else!
 

SumnerH

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I'm more than willing to take the less sarcastic advices that non-rinse sterilisers could work better than rinsing with fresh water, with a few conditions.

For the sake of argument / devils advocate:

People have used MUCH worse than today's treated tap-water for ?6000 years with success. What percentage of brews were considered unacceptable with traditional techniques?

How is it that wine was adored by the masses in Jesus's time without StarSan that only appeared in the last few years?


I recognise that the current short-term thinking is that Starsan is the answer to everything. In the meantime, people have managed without it for milleniums, so I look for natural conclusions to age old theories.
Certainly you can make good beer/wine without sanitizing. For all that modern hospitals have access to powerful antibacterials and other sanitizing agents, the #1 most important thing they do to prevent infections is clean everything. If you're brewing, just cleaning thoroughly probably buys you the vast majority of the benefit.

Moreover, _most_ infections won't make your brew unsafe, they'll just make it taste funny.

If you get 19 out of 20 decent batches by cleaning well, and the 20th one tastes bad but isn't horribly bad for you, that's a darned sight better than drinking unpotable water throughout most of human history.

Today, we sanitize to help the odds. I wouldn't be too surprised if a strict cleaning regimen (with no sanitization) would be good enough that _most_ brewers would have very few bad batches in their brewing career. But sanitizing gives you an additional margin for error if you happen to miss something when cleaning, as well as pushing those odds even lower so you don't get stuck with a disappointing result.

And it's also about taste; unless you're _trying_ to make a lambic or something, then a lacto infection won't cause a ruined batch. But it'll make it taste funny. So being more careful about sanitizing makes your brew taste more like what you were going for.
 

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I don't think anyone is saying StarSan is the answer to everything. We are saying sanitization is a VERY important step in modern beer making. Visit a brewery or winery near you. Breweries sanitize their cold side equipment. Wineries use sulfites in the must to kill off wild yeast. Yes, people have made fermented beverages for thousands of years. There are even beer styles that take advantage of the naturally occurring bacteria and wild yeast in the air.

I still stand by what I said. Do you want to make beer, or the best beer possible?
 

farmbrewernw

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Cleaning is a big part of sanitation, in fact sanitation is not disinfecting, there is still some organisms left when sanitizing but not enough to make a bad batch of beer. In theory if you where to clean very very well you could get close to sanitation level, thing is with a good sanitizer like StarSan, iodine, or the like you increase your chances of success. Bleach can be sketchy because people tend to use too much causing chemical off flavors. Contact times vary by what you use, the guy that makes StarSan says that in all reality you only need like 30sec of contact time but he puts 3 min on the bottle just to cover himself. Bleach and iodophor have to air dry so a lot of us don't like using it because we are impatient. Whatever you use use a non rinse sanitizer, it lessens the risk of recontamination.
 

BioBeing

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Don't drink beer - it contains dihydrogen monoxide. A very dangerous chemical that can easily kill.

You do also realize that, before the introduction of antibiotics, the average life expectancy was 40 years? Now it is over 70.

If you want good beer/wine: sanitize. You admit you are having a problem, and there are easy solutions. Use them.
 

rico567

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Everything in this thread concerning the role of sanitation in brewing has been very well laid out, according to everything I've learned. From what I can see from the posts of the OP, he doesn't believe sanitizing is necessary, since people didn't do it in earlier days. In addition, his posts contain several inferences that there's something intrinsically wrong with any "chemical."
I can therefore see no reason to try to add anything to this thread, since the OP is clearly not interested in applying contemporary prophylactic methods to his brewing.
 

llazy_llama

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I'm done with this thread.

What did they use to sanitize in Jesus' time? Nothing, because they didn't know about the existance of bacteria back then. The first baby was born in a cave. Does that mean we should still deliver babies in caves today? You can with your child if you like, I'll use modern techniques and modern sterilized equipment.

Use vodka, tap water, elephant dung, or whatever you want for sanitizer. You already got the answers to your questions. It's obvious they just aren't the answers you want.
 

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I'm more than willing to take the less sarcastic advices that non-rinse sterilisers could work better than rinsing with fresh water, with a few conditions.

For the sake of argument / devils advocate:

People have used MUCH worse than today's treated tap-water for ?6000 years with success. What percentage of brews were considered unacceptable with traditional techniques?

How is it that wine was adored by the masses in Jesus's time without StarSan that only appeared in the last few years?

I recognise that the current short-term thinking is that Starsan is the answer to everything. In the meantime, people have managed without it for milleniums, so I look for natural conclusions to age old theories.

<Vodka is not an effective sanitizer>
Does Vodka promote a new world order?!

It would be nice if there was a link to something else!
I think most people patiently answered your queries about sanitation. I don't know how many people made brews with contamination in the "old days" but consider that IPAs came into being because of the need to preserve the beer before it soured too badly.

I've made over 250 batches of beer, and about that much wine and never once had an infected batch. I've used either one-step, iodophor or star-san to sanitize.

If you're confident that your sanitization works, then that's great. But to ask questions and then be condescending to those of us who use "chemicals" is a bit much to take. Bleach works, but it's a chemical, too. Wine has a higher ABV and is less likely to get infected as a result, but it does happen. The good news is that infected beer and wine isn't dangerous, just not as good tasting in most cases. I'm certain that people drank some nasty stuff in the past, because it's what they had. I knew kids that made hooch under their bed that tasted horrible, but didn't kill them.

If you want to learn about sanitizers and the process, this a great place to do it. If you want to argue for the sake of argument, there are other places for that.
 

Sbert420

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I'm more than willing to take the less sarcastic advices that non-rinse sterilisers could work better than rinsing with fresh water, with a few conditions.

For the sake of argument / devils advocate:

People have used MUCH worse than today's treated tap-water for ?6000 years with success. What percentage of brews were considered unacceptable with traditional techniques?

How is it that wine was adored by the masses in Jesus's time without StarSan that only appeared in the last few years?

I recognise that the current short-term thinking is that Starsan is the answer to everything. In the meantime, people have managed without it for milleniums, so I look for natural conclusions to age old theories.

<Vodka is not an effective sanitizer>
Does Vodka promote a new world order?!

It would be nice if there was a link to something else!
You asked for others opinion, they gave it. Lighten up!!!!
 
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GabrielKnight

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Many thanks everone. I've given up on the vodka idea, ordered Star-San and will be using it from now on. I thought people were just trying to push one product but now understand it's importance. Apologies if I didn't seem grateful for the advice - I am. I was trying to play devils advocate but I think my new barley wine was kicking in stronger than expected and I was talking balls, sorry. In fact I have no idea what I was talking about - Vodka promoting new world order?!?! :eek: Atb :tank:
 

SpanishCastleAle

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Good for you. I was hesitant to switch to Starsan too since bleach worked so well for me for so long...it was actually the reduced amount of rinsing that got me over the fence on Starsan. I just wanted to save water. It's really great stuff (you might try PBW too, same company and it's environmentally safe).

I think if you look at the history of beer...it seems there was always a lot of emphasis on the spoiling of it. It seems back then it wasn't a matter of whether it would sour...but rather how quickly. Which makes sense because you could probably brew a relatively sanitary batch without sanitizing anything (the boil would do it)...but as soon as you start to move it around or serve it you introduce contamination which will take some time to sour the beer.
 
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