1.144: is this just a bad idea?

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AlexKay

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I just brewed a ryewine (think wheatwine, but with rye.) It's cooling the last 10 degrees to pitching temperature now. OG is 1.144. Here's what I know to do (or think I know):

1) Pitch lots of yeast. I'm planning a pack of Nottingham for a gallon batch. Nottingham lists a 14% alcohol tolerance, btw.
2) Oxygenate a whole lot. I'm not sold on oxygenating a second time (should I be?), but I'm definitely going to gas it up good at the beginning.
3) Rehydrate the yeast, then slowly add wort into it to avoid a sudden jump in osmotic pressure.
4) Use a yeast nutrient. (Servomyces, check.)
5) Ferment for as long as it takes.

What am I missing, or do I have wrong?
 

MaxStout

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If the Notty craps out at 14%, I can theoretically still get 72% attenuation.

By my math, 72% attenuation means FG of about 1.040. It'll be sweet, if that's what you're aiming for. Monitor your final gravity, in case the Notty poops out early. If it stalls out too high, you can repitch with some neutral yeast that has higher alcohol tolerance. IIRC, CBC-1 can go to 18%.
 
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AlexKay

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I've got about 60 IBUs in there, and hopefully that'll counter some of the sweetness. Then again, the plan is to let it sit for a long time, so final bitterness may be a bit less than that.

FWIW, the recipe (about a one-gallon batch) was:
2.5 lbs. rye malt
1.5 lbs. Vienna
0.5 lbs. Munich
0.25 lb crystal rye
0.25 lb. DRC

4 g Magnum @ 60 min.
8 g Willamette @ 15 min.
8 g Willamette @ 0 min.

11 g (1 pack) Lallemand Nottingham
 

hotbeer

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Put a CCTV cam on it. Might be interesting if this is just a carboy and airlock. Or are you a little more sophisticated with your fermenter?
 

jwelch1103

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At that OG I would oxygenate at least a second smaller dose at about 12 hours after pitching and more likely a 3rd small dose at about 24 hours after pitch. The yeast will use it up.
 
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AlexKay

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Put a CCTV cam on it. Might be interesting if this is just a carboy and airlock. Or are you a little more sophisticated with your fermenter?
Nope, just a LBMB and a 3-piece airlock. There's a good amount of headspace. And I have a Tilt floating in it at the moment.
 
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Yeah, I'm going to be THAT guy. While one pack of Notty should be able to ferment a one G batch without any problem, I would be worried about the osmotic pressure that an OG of 1.144 would have. The yeast may not like it and never start. If it were me, I would start with a lower OG in the neighborhood of 1.090, and step feed it as fermentation proceeds. But, I hope you prove me wrong!
 

jwelch1103

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Yeah, I'm going to be THAT guy. While one pack of Notty should be able to ferment a one G batch without any problem, I would be worried about the osmotic pressure that an OG of 1.144 would have. The yeast may not like it and never start. If it were me, I would start with a lower OG in the neighborhood of 1.090, and step feed it as fermentation proceeds. But, I hope you prove me wrong!
I agree, step feeding would be a good approach for that gravity.
 

Miraculix

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Most of the wine, champagne and bottling yeasts do not ferment longer sugars. This means it's not going to lower the attenuation, once the shorter sugars are gone. The shorter sugars are usually gone first so these yeasts won't help in a stucked fermentation beer scenario. Cbc1 also does not ferment longer sugars.
 

emptygrowler

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There is such a thing as osmotic pressure. While I can’t explain it well, I understand the concept. There is so much sugar that the yeast can’t survive and therefore it never even starts to ferment. here is a great podcast explaining high gravity beers and some explanation of osmotic pressure. I have listened to it a dozen times as each time i get more info that i missed the previous time. ‎The Brewing Network Presents | The Jamil Show: Brewing Big Beers - Brewing With Style 02-23-17 on Apple Podcasts
 

hottpeper13

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I think Notty is a solid choice,I've used it many times in my 14% RIS. I first make a small beer, 5 gal at 1.044,mostly blonde ales.
The one I did at 1.134 I took some of the wort out of the boil after 10 min(about a qt) chilled and pitched onto the cake. When the wort was at pitching temp of 58*(Notty will ferment well at 55*) the vitality starter is pitched. There's about a 4-6 hr lag then you better have a blow off. When it slows (3-5 days) I bump the temp to 64* to finish,always between 1.019- 1.024.
 
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AlexKay

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Gotta love the Tilt. Gravity went down to 1.132, back up (over a few hours) to 1.137, then down (overnight) to 1.095, back up to 1.119, and now seems to be going back down. Airlock is bubbling, temperature has gone up (62 F in 60 F ambient) and there's krausen (though not too much yet), so ... gotta love the Tilt.
 

MaxStout

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Gotta love the Tilt. Gravity went down to 1.132, back up (over a few hours) to 1.137, then down (overnight) to 1.095, back up to 1.119, and now seems to be going back down. Airlock is bubbling, temperature has gone up (62 F in 60 F ambient) and there's krausen (though not too much yet), so ... gotta love the Tilt.

You have anti-yeast in there, converting alcohol and CO2 back to sugar? ;)

That doesn't bode well for Tilt reliability.

One more reason I'll hold off on getting one. (The other reason is that I ferment in stainless, set inside a ferm chamber converted from a freezer. Too many layers of Faraday shielding there--I doubt I'd get a good signal from it.)
 
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AlexKay

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I've got the same with respect to stainless and the freezer. I hung a Pi right over the freezer and had no trouble with signals until I started getting (many) more Tilts.
 

TestTickle

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You have anti-yeast in there, converting alcohol and CO2 back to sugar? ;)

That doesn't bode well for Tilt reliability.

One more reason I'll hold off on getting one. (The other reason is that I ferment in stainless, set inside a ferm chamber converted from a freezer. Too many layers of Faraday shielding there--I doubt I'd get a good signal from it.)
During active and especially aggressive fermentation, the Tilt is simply a victim of its environment. In my mind, it doesn't make it unreliable, you just have to take into account the environment. The more data points you have, the more "unreliable" it'll seem because of krausen and the storm that the yeast creates in the fermenter. With some yeast and also with higher gravity brews, if you watch the live data, you will literally watch the gravity bounce up and down until fermentation starts slowing down. If getting readings from Google Sheets, Brewfather, Brewer's Friend, etc., having the Tilt report every 30 or 60 minutes vs every 15 minutes will make the readings appear to be more reliable.

I currently have a beer finishing up with Wyeast 1968, and if anyone has used that stuff, it's a bizarre yeast. The readings were all over the place after the first 12-24 hours from the chunks that fly around with that stuff. Now accuracy on the other hand...I don't own Tilts because they are accurate, lol. But as a fermentation monitoring tool, they have been fantastic for me. They are like a window into your fermenter.

But yes, you may have issues with the signal if you use stainless AND have it inside of a freezer. I also use stainless (although the Anvils are not all that thick) and ferment inside a mini fridge. I have a RaspberryPi on the side of the fridge and the signal is great. Prior to that, I used an old iPhone that was several feet away and had only occasional and brief losses of signal.
 

hotbeer

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My biggest beef with Tilt's are that I have to constantly have them monitored. I shouldn't have to geek out with raspberry pi's or use old cellphones to monitor them.

They'll be useful to me when I can just show up with my phone and poll them for stored data. Slightly more useful would be to also have them on wifi instead of bluetooth.

I don't guess I-spindles store data either, but I think they are on wi-fi which I suppose I could write my own program and run it on one of my servers that stay on all the time.
 

MaxStout

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My biggest beef with Tilt's are that I have to constantly have them monitored. I shouldn't have to geek out with raspberry pi's or use old cellphones to monitor them.

They'll be useful to me when I can just show up with my phone and poll them for stored data. Slightly more useful would be to also have them on wifi instead of bluetooth.

I don't guess I-spindles store data either, but I think they are on wi-fi which I suppose I could write my own program and run it on one of my servers that stay on all the time.

If a product like that can't be fully functional plug & play right out of the box, they have missed a big chunk of marketing potential. No one should have to hack it with a raspberry pi or some such, just to operate a friggin' hydrometer.
 

hotbeer

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If a product like that can't be fully functional plug & play right out of the box, they have missed a big chunk of marketing potential. No one should have to hack it with a raspberry pi or some such, just to operate a friggin' hydrometer.
That sums up my thinking on them.

Just to be clear, I don't have one. I really thought they'd be the thing to have until I realized that I have to constantly monitor it. So I've not looked at them since.
 

MaxStout

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That sums up my thinking on them.

Just to be clear, I don't have one. I really thought they'd be the thing to have until I realized that I have to constantly monitor it. So I've not looked at them since.

It's kind of a neat bling thing for those who want to hack some gear, and many brewers swear by them. But for the reasons I mentioned, it's not practical for me--I can't justify dropping $130 for it. I have Brew Buckets, so I can always pour some beer to check with a regular hydrometer. I want one data point at a certain time, not have to monitor it over time to smooth the curve.
 

TestTickle

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RaspberryPi integration is only one option. There are Android and iOS Tilt apps that offer quick monitoring of SG and temp right out of the box….literally no “hacking” or tweaking.

It’s more than bling if you have a use for it…just like anything else. For me, it’s been very useful over the few years that I have used them. For others, perhaps not so much.
 

hotbeer

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There are Android and iOS Tilt apps that offer quick monitoring of SG and temp right out of the box….literally no “hacking” or tweaking.
Yes, I agree with that. I still have a problem with the fact I have to leave something there to monitor it 24 x 7 if I want all that data.

The device itself should log and store that data for me.
 

TestTickle

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I’ll give just one example of how they have been useful. I had to go out of town several months ago and I had a lager fermenting in a temp controlled fridge on a WiFi Inkbird. I was able to monitor fermentation and when the SG got within about 5 points of expected FG, I adjusted the temp on the fridge for a diacetyl rest.

It also helped me shave a few days off of many brews by knowing where I was at in fermentation instead of waiting x number of days, monitoring airlock activity, taking a reading, waiting a couple of days to check again and verify that it’s done, cold crash and package. For some IPA’s, it helped me nail down my dry hopping schedule.

Again, not everyone would benefit from them, and I get it, but I can tell you from my experience of using them in probably close to 100 brews (without counting) that they are more than just bling.
 
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AlexKay

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The Raspberry Pi isn’t really much of a hack. If Tilt sold a separate “data logger” device that did everything for you out of the box … it would pretty much just be a Pi, a power adaptor, a case, and a pre-burned SD card.
 

bwible

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I like the Tilt. I only have 1. So can only monitor one beer at a time. This is actually a good thing, as it keeps me from starting more than 1 beer at a time.

I am not sure mine is properly calibrated. You’d think for $130 it would come calibrated. For example I just did an Irish Red that started at 1.047 and the Tilt says it finished at 1.006. Using 1056. That comes up as 87% attenuation and just can’t be right. 1056 says 73-77%. I’m not using enzymes to make low carb beers. The batch is not infected. I re-used the yeast for a stout, also not infected.

I tried calibrating this thing before. I will have to check it with my glass hydrometer and see how far off it is. Its funny it doesn’t usually seem to be off on og, just usually fg. Maybe it has crud stuck to it from fermentation, being in the head of foam, etc. If thats the problem there’s really no way to avoid that.

I also agree about having to use an old cell phone to monitor the thing. I use an old iPhone 5S. It doesn’t work more than about 10 feet away. (Glass carboy) The Tilt app also has to be open and running full time to log the data. The app keeps quitting on me every so often and shutting down for no apparent reason and I lose the data until I reopen it. I’m not always there to restart it and I don’t catch it right away.

I like the Tilt but it seems to have its issues.
 
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TestTickle

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Wow,this thread went off the rails! good thing nobody mentioned LODO or it might explode. High gravity brews are always a good idea.
It definitely went off the rails, haha. My apologies to the OP.

@bwible, I'll say one more thing on the subject of the Tilt regarding accuracy, then we can move this to a new thread if necessary, lol. I never count on them to be completely accurate, I always consider it more of a monitoring tool than anything. Saying that, I use two calibration points - one at 1.000 in water, the other is my measured OG for each batch.

On brew day, I make sure it measures 1.000 in water (which they usually do) and adjust if they don't. Before pitching yeast and dropping in the Tilt, I take an OG reading with my refractometer, drop in the Tilt and set the measured OG as my second calibration point once it has settled. Doing this, the readings are far more accurate, although I still rely on manual readings for actual OG/FG/ABV. It is certainly not a replacement for a regular hydrometer or refractometer.

Cheers!
 

hotbeer

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If it had internal storage, processing and WiFi capabilities, the battery life would be ****. I literally JUST replaced the batteries on the first two I purchased around three years ago.
I don't believe that at all. The only thing that's going to impact energy use is the wifi vs bluetooth. So you might have had to replace the batteries at 26 months instead of 36 months. Though wifi can use less power if the node it's connected too is closer as you have to be with BT.

But now you have me miffed about having to replace batteries. They aren't rechargeable batteries! Though it would be more cost over a plug in charger, a wireless charging for them would be ideal.
 
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