FYI : concord kettles are not 18/8 stainless

Rivenin · Mar 2, 2016

Just throwing this out there for everyone so they're aware. The infamous cheap concord kettles that are found around ebay, amazon, etc. Listed as 304 or 18/8-10 stainless.
They're some sort of unknown alloy.

Background on how i got this...

I work in a very large dental manufacturing company and spoke with one of our metals engineering people to see if they could weld one of my concord pots as they weld stainless on a regular basis for the dental world.

Gave him one of my older smaller concord kettles to weld on and play around with and practice on before he went to my large one... which i'm glad I did. He was having a hard time with just welding 2 pieces together, so he had our metallurgist guy run a certificate of validation on a piece of the metal twice and this is what he came up with. Attached the verification to my google drive which should work for everyone, if not, let me know.

C = Concord
201 = 201 stainless
301 = 301 stainless
below are the percentages of the concord based on what it's supposed to be

Concord ----- 201 ------- 301
FE --- 73
NI - 1.1 --- 3.5/5.5 --- 6.0/8.0
MN - 10 -----5.5/7.5 -- 2
CR - 13 ----- 16/18 ----16/18

although it's closest to 201 which is safe and i will continue to use mine for now. Just wanted people to be aware

this is what 201 is safe for BTW
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Typical Applications
Appliances, utensils and cutlery; restaurant; institutional and household furnishings such as pots, pans, flatware, counters, splash shields, sinks, dishwasher components, oven parts
Automotive trim, moldings, wiper arms, fastener parts
Architectural and construction hardware, hinges, doors, frames, roll formed sections
Food processing and handling, milk and dairy products, beer, wine, beverages, conveyors
Transportation, rapid transit cars, buses, aircraft, cargo containers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzc821FkFkjhaFotbUlUZEpnV0k/view?usp=sharing

Type of---%Nickel----%Chromiium %Carbon %Manganese %Silicon % Nitrogen Corrosion Melting Youngs Moduluis
Steel mpy (1) Range x10^6 PSI
201------3.5 - 5.5-----16.0---18.0---0.15 max-----5.5 - 7.5-----1.0 max----0.25 max---------20-----2550 - 2650----28.0
301------6.0 - 8.0 -----16.0---18.0---0.15 max-----2.0 max-----1.0 max-----0------------------12 ----2550 - 2590-----28.0
302------8.0 - 10.0----17.0---19.0---0.15 max-----2.0 max-----1.0 max-----0-------------10 - 18----2550 - 2590-----28.0
304------8.0 - 10.5----18.0---20.0---0.08 max-----2.0 max-----1.0 max-----0--------------6 - 12 ----2550 - 2650-----28.0
309------19.0 - 22.0---24.0---26.0---0.2 max------2.0 max-----1.0 max-----0---------------5 - 9-----2550 - 2650-----29.0

DarkStarNJ · Mar 2, 2016

interesting

with only 1% nickel it's going to be much more prone to rust than the other alloys.

can't seem to find a commercial example that matches up though. (just 18/0 with no nickel)

Sconnie12 · Mar 2, 2016

Yup I have run across the same thing at work. It's far less than a 201 material. I had a Concord kettle and it rusts like crazy!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7341435&postcount=16

It's a shame too as a lot of other suppliers like CO Brewing and Ruby Street all use Concord equipment.

Rivenin · Mar 2, 2016

It is a shame for sure as it's misleading... Note > i never had an issue with that pot, but have my 20 gallon pot i have yet to use.... so we will see what happens with it. but i'm hoping we wont have any issues until i get save my cash for a better product.

augiedoggy · Mar 3, 2016

Rivenin said:
Just throwing this out there for everyone so they're aware. The infamous cheap concord kettles that are found around ebay, amazon, etc. Listed as 304 or 18/8-10 stainless.
They're some sort of unknown alloy.

Background on how i got this...

I work in a very large dental manufacturing company and spoke with one of our metals engineering people to see if they could weld one of my concord pots as they weld stainless on a regular basis for the dental world.

Gave him one of my older smaller concord kettles to weld on and play around with and practice on before he went to my large one... which i'm glad I did. He was having a hard time with just welding 2 pieces together, so he had our metallurgist guy run a certificate of validation on a piece of the metal twice and this is what he came up with. Attached the verification to my google drive which should work for everyone, if not, let me know.

C = Concord
201 = 201 stainless
301 = 301 stainless
below are the percentages of the concord based on what it's supposed to be

Concord ----- 201 ------- 301
FE --- 73
NI - 1.1 --- 3.5/5.5 --- 6.0/8.0
MN - 10 -----5.5/7.5 -- 2
CR - 13 ----- 16/18 ----16/18

although it's closest to 201 which is safe and i will continue to use mine for now. Just wanted people to be aware

this is what 201 is safe for BTW
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Typical Applications
Appliances, utensils and cutlery; restaurant; institutional and household furnishings such as pots, pans, flatware, counters, splash shields, sinks, dishwasher components, oven parts
Automotive trim, moldings, wiper arms, fastener parts
Architectural and construction hardware, hinges, doors, frames, roll formed sections
Food processing and handling, milk and dairy products, beer, wine, beverages, conveyors
Transportation, rapid transit cars, buses, aircraft, cargo containers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzc821FkFkjhaFotbUlUZEpnV0k/view?usp=sharing

Type of---%Nickel----%Chromiium %Carbon %Manganese %Silicon % Nitrogen Corrosion Melting Youngs Moduluis
Steel mpy (1) Range x10^6 PSI
201------3.5 - 5.5-----16.0---18.0---0.15 max-----5.5 - 7.5-----1.0 max----0.25 max---------20-----2550 - 2650----28.0
301------6.0 - 8.0 -----16.0---18.0---0.15 max-----2.0 max-----1.0 max-----0------------------12 ----2550 - 2590-----28.0
302------8.0 - 10.0----17.0---19.0---0.15 max-----2.0 max-----1.0 max-----0-------------10 - 18----2550 - 2590-----28.0
304------8.0 - 10.5----18.0---20.0---0.08 max-----2.0 max-----1.0 max-----0--------------6 - 12 ----2550 - 2650-----28.0
309------19.0 - 22.0---24.0---26.0---0.2 max------2.0 max-----1.0 max-----0---------------5 - 9-----2550 - 2650-----29.0

I have no idea how much the concord being off from 201 composition matters but most kitchenware and kitchen stainless is 201 which is 30% stronger than 304, It resists rusting just as well as 304 from what Ive seen. Chapman stainless products are 201 as well. Theres a couple other threads touching on this but the only advantage to the 304 over the 201 that I know of is 304 is more resistant to strong caustic chemicals such as some of the industrial cleaners they use in breweries, these would not be found of used in a homebrewing environment so..

my concord/ballington kettle is 3 years old... no rust at all, BTW you can tell its made of different stainless because its a different color than the 304 stainless components are... The stainless composition likely varies a bit from kettle to kettle depending on the lot of stainless used.

Bayou classic kettles are not 304 stainless either... They work with induction tops and 304 stainless does not. I think you'll find many of the kettles arent exactly what they say but the real question should be whether it matters for the application at hand? everybody is so concerned with having 304 or 316 because thats what the commercial breweries use but is it really important in a homebrewing application? Especially when some people are doing fine with aluminum.

Sconnie12 · Mar 3, 2016

It matters a lot as it has almost no nickel and not nearly enough chromium. What is really discouraging is they add a ton of manganese to form the austenitic grain structure i.e. so the kettles are not magnetic. That's done to fool consumers to think they are non-magnetic 304 SS when in real life they are even cheaper than 201 stainless.

Do you 100% need 304 for home brewing? Probably not. However it will hold up forever and is the proper material for the brewing application. The point is that Concord not only lies about their material they try and deceive their customers by manipulating the material to give the allusion of 304 stainless steel.

Here's my Concord kettle after the 1st use. It was sent back immediately and I brought the material issue to their attention almost a year ago. Nothing was done. Extremely deceitful business practices in my opinion.

Rivenin · Mar 3, 2016

augiedoggy said:
I have no idea how much the concord being off from 201 composition matters but most kitchenware and kitchen stainless is 201 which is 30% stronger than 304, It resists rusting just as well as 304 from what Ive seen. Chapman stainless products are 201 as well. Theres a couple other threads touching on this but the only advantage to the 304 over the 201 that I know of is 304 is more resistant to strong caustic chemicals such as some of the industrial cleaners they use in breweries, these would not be found of used in a homebrewing environment so..

my concord/ballington kettle is 3 years old... no rust at all, BTW you can tell its made of different stainless because its a different color than the 304 stainless components are... The stainless composition likely varies a bit from kettle to kettle depending on the lot of stainless used.

Bayou classic kettles are not 304 stainless either... They work with induction tops and 304 stainless does not. I think you'll find many of the kettles arent exactly what they say but the real question should be whether it matters for the application at hand? everybody is so concerned with having 304 or 316 because thats what the commercial breweries use but is it really important in a homebrewing application? Especially when some people are doing fine with aluminum.

I wrote what 201 was good for at the bottom of my post; this includes brewing ... like I also said, I've used my older concord for years without issues.

It's not necessarily "important" on the homebrew level as 201 is just fine. The important part is the fact that they are lying about what their products are... As you can see from the post above mine, they rust on certain levels, the stainless is not up to par.

just letting people be aware with what they're getting into with this as many people think they're getting 304 when they are not.

cantrell00 · Mar 3, 2016

There is a possibility that this pot is not indicative of all Concord kettles as a whole.

And just because something says American made on it does not mean that the base metal was not imported from China.

I work in the scrap metal business & deal with numerous manufacturers and they buy coil/sheet from any number of countries. China, India, Turkey, etc..

Sconnie12 · Mar 3, 2016

cantrell00 said:
There is a possibility that this pot is not indicative of all Concord kettles as a whole.

And just because something says American made on it does not mean that the base metal was not imported from China.

I work in the scrap metal business & deal with numerous manufacturers and they buy coil/sheet from any number of countries. China, India, Turkey, etc..

I'd be willing to bet A LOT of money it's company wide. If they list one kettle that is not even close to 304 stainless as such then it's safe to say that all their products are the same. Especially when they use a material that is meant to deceive.

cantrell00 · Mar 3, 2016

Sconnie12 said:
I'd be willing to bet A LOT of money it's company wide. If they list one kettle that is not even close to 304 stainless as such then it's safe to say that all their products are the same. Especially when they use a material that is meant to deceive.

It's horrible QC for sure but not necessarily deliberate.

Do they advertise as 304 it as just Stainless Steel?

augiedoggy · Mar 3, 2016

We dont even know if all the "concord" branded pots and kettles are made by the same manufacturer do we? Id love to see some metallurgy tests done on other chinese kettles like the bayou and older blichmann kettles... I already know the bayou isnt regular 304 stainless. my "ballington " brand kettles are from the same company as the concord brand ones and like I mentioned no signs of rust at all and it seen heavy use and abuse with 5 holes drilled into it.

Even better I'd love to know if any of this matters? (I'm not saying it wasnt a good find on the OP's part and its certainly worth knowing but the question remains, Will this have any effect positive or negative on anything?

I think the comments about rusting kettles should be taken with caution since there are a lot of things that can cause good quality stainless to rust like contamination from other metals... Using steel wool or even drilling a hole with the wrong kind of bit will cause rust. The truth is the concord pots are used by MANY home brewers here and I think this is the second mention of any rust with one Ive seen it 3+ years.

augiedoggy · Mar 3, 2016

cantrell00 said:
It's horrible QC for sure but not necessarily deliberate.

Do they advertise as 304 it as just Stainless Steel?

I have to agree here.. I doubt its some sort of sinister plot but who knows.

Sconnie12 · Mar 3, 2016

cantrell00 said:
It's horrible QC for sure but not necessarily deliberate.

Do they advertise as 304 it as just Stainless Steel?

They advertise 18/8 and 18/10 which is 304 and 316 stainless.

augiedoggy said:
We dont even know if all the "concord" branded pots and kettles are made by the same manufacturer do we? Id love to see some metallurgy tests done on other chinese kettles like the bayou and older blichmann kettles... I already know the bayou isnt regular 304 stainless. my "ballington " brand kettles are from the same company as the concord brand ones and like I mentioned no signs of rust at all and it seen heavy use and abuse with 5 holes drilled into it.

Even better I'd love to know if any of this matters? (I'm not saying it wasnt a good find on the OP's part and its certainly worth knowing but the question remains, Will this have any effect positive or negative on anything?

I think the comments about rusting kettles should be taken with caution since there are a lot of things that can cause good quality stainless to rust like contamination from other metals... Using steel wool or even drilling a hole with the wrong kind of bit will cause rust. The truth is the concord pots are used by MANY home brewers here and I think this is the second mention of any rust with one Ive seen it 3+ years.

My personal take is most Concord kettle buyers are going off price alone. If some rust pops up it's not a big issue and it might not ever be brought up. The "well it cost 1/3 the price of a Blichmann so whatever" mentality comes to mind.

Using steel wool or drilling a hole will not make a kettle rust. There is 0 truth in that. Steel wool might cause a few surface rust specks that can be rubbed off with your finger. The ONLY reason to add manganese to these kettles is to create the austenitic grain structure so it's non magnetic. It's an old trick done by the Chinese to pass off real cheap SS off as 304/316. Honestly I rarely see that done any more so I'd have to conclude that Concord is dealing with a real shady Chinese manufacturer.

cantrell00 · Mar 3, 2016

I have one. I'll shoot it with my Niton @ work.

Will let you know.

It makes no difference to me one way or the other.

None of these alloys represent any hazard.

cantrell00 · Mar 3, 2016

Sconnie12 said:
They advertise 18/8 and 18/10 which is 304 and 316 stainless.

My personal take is most Concord kettle buyers are going off price alone. If some rust pops up it's not a big issue and it might not ever be brought up. The "well it cost 1/3 the price of a Blichmann so whatever" mentality comes to mind.

Using steel wool or drilling a hole will not make a kettle rust. There is 0 truth in that. Steel wool might cause a few surface rust specks that can be rubbed off with your finger. The ONLY reason to add manganese to these kettles is to create the austenitic grain structure so it's non magnetic. It's an old trick done by the Chinese to pass off real cheap SS off as 304/316. Honestly I rarely see that done any more so I'd have to conclude that Concord is dealing with a real shady Chinese manufacturer.

18/10 is not 316. FYI

augiedoggy · Mar 4, 2016

Sconnie12 said:
They advertise 18/8 and 18/10 which is 304 and 316 stainless.

My personal take is most Concord kettle buyers are going off price alone. If some rust pops up it's not a big issue and it might not ever be brought up. The "well it cost 1/3 the price of a Blichmann so whatever" mentality comes to mind.

Using steel wool or drilling a hole will not make a kettle rust. There is 0 truth in that. Steel wool might cause a few surface rust specks that can be rubbed off with your finger. The ONLY reason to add manganese to these kettles is to create the austenitic grain structure so it's non magnetic. It's an old trick done by the Chinese to pass off real cheap SS off as 304/316. Honestly I rarely see that done any more so I'd have to conclude that Concord is dealing with a real shady Chinese manufacturer.

Using steel wool or steel abrasive tools on stainless very often DOES result in rust on the surface of the stainless.. Most people are not forensic scientists about it and do not research where the rust came from. They simply blame the "cheap Chinese kettle" I think you are smart enough to see the point I was making but just chose to be argumentative here.

Until someone has the blichmann kettles tested I see no reason to believe they are automatically made of the correct steel, They are also cheaply manufactured Chinese made kettles (up until recently) and the price is for the blichmann logo not the manufacturing costs.

Now if a company who markets themselves and prides themselves on being 304 SS like SSbrewtech had products made with another grade of steel I would find that more ironic...

Sconnie12 · Mar 4, 2016

cantrell00 said:
18/10 is not 316. FYI

Ummmm yes it is

augiedoggy said:
Using steel wool or steel abrasive tools on stainless very often DOES result in rust on the surface of the stainless.. Most people are not forensic scientists about it and do not research where the rust came from. They simply blame the "cheap Chinese kettle" I think you are smart enough to see the point I was making but just chose to be argumentative here.

Until someone has the blichmann kettles tested I see no reason to believe they are automatically made of the correct steel, They are also cheaply manufactured Chinese made kettles (up until recently) and the price is for the blichmann logo not the manufacturing costs.

Now if a company who markets themselves and prides themselves on being 304 SS like SSbrewtech had products made with another grade of steel I would find that more ironic...

Do you have anything to back up that claim? Do you work in an industrial setting that involves SS manufacturing? What do you think drill bits and punches and stamping eq is made from? Steel.

I've tested my old Blichmann kettle at work with our XRF and it was dead nuts 304SS. Same with my new Spike Brewing kettle and SS conical. There's a reason why those legit company's eq costs more; they produce quality eq and don't lie to their customers.

I guess I don't understand your last comment about the Brew Tech guys claiming 304SS. Concord claims 18/8 304SS and it's not. Why isn't that ironic?

cantrell00 · Mar 4, 2016

Sconnie12 said:
Ummmm yes it is

316 SS is 18% chrome, 8% nickel (same as 304) with 3% molybdenum.

I dunno what the trade name is for 18/10 SS but I guarantee you it isn't 316.

cantrell00 · Mar 4, 2016

Sconnie12 said:
Ummmm yes it is

Do you have anything to back up that claim? Do you work in an industrial setting that involves SS manufacturing? What do you think drill bits and punches and stamping eq is made from? Steel.

I've tested my old Blichmann kettle at work with our XRF and it was dead nuts 304SS. Same with my new Spike Brewing kettle and SS conical. There's a reason why those legit company's eq costs more; they produce quality eq and don't lie to their customers.

I guess I don't understand your last comment about the Brew Tech guys claiming 304SS. Concord claims 18/8 304SS and it's not. Why isn't that ironic?

I can understand why you would be so sensitive about this with the coin you dropped in that brew equipment. I would be adamant of it's superiority too.

Just an observation.

Sconnie12 · Mar 4, 2016

cantrell00 said:
316 SS is 18% chrome, 8% nickel (same as 304) with 3% molybdenum.

I dunno what the trade name is for 18/10 SS but I guarantee you it isn't 316.

304 has a minimum of 8% nickel
316 has a minimum of 10% nickel

I know the 18/8 & 18/10 are out dated designations but 18/10 refers to 316.

cantrell00 said:
I can understand why you would be so sensitive about this with the coin you dropped in that brew equipment. I would be adamant of it's superiority too.

Just an observation.

It's not being sensitive. It's being factual. Blichmann, Spike and SS were all classified as 304SS. The Concord didn't even register as a standard material. If someone wants to save money by buying a cheap Chinese 'stainless' kettle then go ahead but I don't think asking them to advertise their material as such is asking too much.

augiedoggy · Mar 4, 2016

Sconnie12 said:
304 has a minimum of 8% nickel
316 has a minimum of 10% nickel

I know the 18/8 & 18/10 are out dated designations but 18/10 refers to 316.

It's not being sensitive. It's being factual. Blichmann, Spike and SS were all classified as 304SS. The Concord didn't even register as a standard material. If someone wants to save money by buying a cheap Chinese 'stainless' kettle then go ahead but I don't think asking them to advertise their material as such is asking too much.

The last time I checked SS brewtech and spike were selling the same Chinese kettles also sold as the megapot. The blichmann kettles were also from a Chinese supplier. Recently both spike and blichmann changed suppliers... I have no idea who's stuff they are marketing now.

cantrell00 · Mar 4, 2016

Sconnie12 said:
304 has a minimum of 8% nickel
316 has a minimum of 10% nickel

I know the 18/8 & 18/10 are out dated designations but 18/10 refers to 316.

This is completely inaccurate. 316 has a minimum of 8% nickel & 3% molybdenum.

I can send you the material specifications from AK Steel if you prefer.

The only difference between 304 & 316 SS is the 3% moly.

WrQth · Mar 4, 2016

cantrell00 said:
This is completely inaccurate. 316 has a minimum of 8% nickel & 3% molybdenum.

I can send you the material specifications from AK Steel if you prefer.

The only difference between 304 & 316 SS is the 3% moly.

Composition in Weight Per Cent - Balance Iron
UNS EN AISI ACI C Cr Mo Ni
Number Number Type Type
S30400 1.4301 304 CF-8 .08max 18.0-20.0 - 8.0-10.5
S30403 1.4306 304L CF-3 .03max 18.0-20.0 - 8.0-12.0
S31600 1.4401 316 CF-8M .08max 16.0-18.0 2.0-3.0 10.0-14.0
S31603 1.4404 316L CF-3M .03max 16.0-18.0 2.0-3.0 10.0-14.0

https://www.nickelinstitute.org/~/Media/Files/TechnicalLiterature/StainlessSteels_AnIntroductiontotheirMetallurgyandCorrosionResistance_14056_.pdf

Sconnie12 · Mar 4, 2016

augiedoggy said:
The last time I checked SS brewtech and spike were selling the same Chinese kettles also sold as the megapot. The blichmann kettles were also from a Chinese supplier. Recently both spike and blichmann changed suppliers... I have no idea who's stuff they are marketing now.

I've seen you make this comment before. Do you think all Spike, Blichmann and SS do is slap their name on a Chinese kettle? Each kettle from those suppliers is completely different and engineered; not just slapping a label on them. Suggesting so is a injustice to the engineering and innovation all 3 are doing for the industry.

I get the feeling you're backing what Concord does more than the other 3. That blows my mind as all Concord does is import the cheapest crap they can get their hands on i.e why they sell on eBay and aren't a legit company/brand.

cantrell00 said:
This is completely inaccurate. 316 has a minimum of 8% nickel & 3% molybdenum.

I can send you the material specifications from AK Steel if you prefer.

The only difference between 304 & 316 SS is the 3% moly.

I don't know who AK Steel is but we go off of UNS codes which are the standard alloy compositions in the US. 18/10 is 316. Please don't spread misinformation or confuse people. This isn't a pissing contest, I'm just trying to inform people.

FuzzeWuzze · Mar 4, 2016

Sconnie12 said:
It matters a lot as it has almost no nickel and not nearly enough chromium. What is really discouraging is they add a ton of manganese to form the austenitic grain structure i.e. so the kettles are not magnetic. That's done to fool consumers to think they are non-magnetic 304 SS when in real life they are even cheaper than 201 stainless.

Do you 100% need 304 for home brewing? Probably not. However it will hold up forever and is the proper material for the brewing application. The point is that Concord not only lies about their material they try and deceive their customers by manipulating the material to give the allusion of 304 stainless steel.

Here's my Concord kettle after the 1st use. It was sent back immediately and I brought the material issue to their attention almost a year ago. Nothing was done. Extremely deceitful business practices in my opinion.

This makes me wonder if there are people passing off pots that arent concord pots, i mean it wouldnt be the first time Chinese manufacturers try to outprice eachother by creating cheaper versions.

I have 3 Concord 20 Gallon pots bought around August 2015, 12 holes/welds between them, used for probably 6-7 brews by now and I have no sign of rust anywhere on my pots.

cantrell00 · Mar 4, 2016

AK Steel is one of thhe largest producers of SS alloy sheet in the US.

cantrell00 · Mar 4, 2016

FuzzeWuzze said:
This makes me wonder if there are people passing off pots that arent concord pots, i mean it wouldnt be the first time Chinese manufacturers try to outprice eachother by creating cheaper versions.

I have 3 Concord 20 Gallon pots bought around August 2015, 12 holes/welds between them, used for probably 6-7 brews by now and I have no sign of rust anywhere on my pots.

Highly likely.

Sconnie12 · Mar 4, 2016

cantrell00 said:
AK Steel is one of thhe largest producers of SS alloy sheet in the US.

This is how misinformation gets started. Someone Googles something, goes to the first link and now they are an expert.

Looked at the AK Steel company you referenced. They use UNS alloy classifications and right on their website 316 is listed as 10% minimum Nickel. Can you please stop and just concede that 18/10 is 316, Jesus.

cantrell00 said:
Highly likely.

Not likely. I purchased my kettle Concord kettle direct from Concord.

mikescooling · Mar 4, 2016

I've had my 25gal concord pots for 3 years, with no problems and the TIG welder had no problem burning in all the fittings. They work

orangehero · Mar 4, 2016

Are you sure that 18/10 when used in the cutlery and cookware context is not just a higher grade of 304? 316 is particularly characterized by the presence of molybdenum.

FYI : concord kettles are not 18/8 stainless

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