Substitute for roasted barley

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mrphillips

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I'm putting together a stout this Friday (payday brew!), but my local HB store doesn't have roasted barley in stock. I was going to try chocolate malt as a substitute, but I still want a sweeter flavor profile and I don't know if the chocolate malt will do that for me.

I've never brewed with either of these grains, so I'll look forward to any suggestions you have!
 
It's surprising that they don't have roasted barley, it's a pretty common grain and is pretty much a requirement for brewing a stout.

Roasted barley (the higher-kilned version can be called black barley) is made from highly kilned unmalted barley and gives a deep, coffee-like roast flavor with a good amount of pleasantly astringent bitterness.

Chocolate malt is make from malted barley. It gives a much milder roast flavor, more of a nuttiness really. It doesn't have the astringent bitterness that the roasted barley does, since it's not kilned as highly.

You can also get black patent malt, which is similar to the roast barley but is a bit more "burnt" and ashy tasting.

Did the HBS have anything labelled black barley? Roasted barley is vital for stout, if it were me I'd hold off till I got the right stuff.
 
If they have them, I think the Carafa malts would be better than using extra chocolate malt. Carafa is debittered, but you will still get more roastiness than Chocolate alone.
 
Beernik said:
If they have them, I think the Carafa malts would be better than using extra chocolate malt. Carafa is debittered, but you will still get more roastiness than Chocolate alone.
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Only the Carafa "special" malts are dehusked/debittered I believe. The regular Carafa will be similar to black patent. I think. I could be wrong...
 
Man, I don't think anything REALLY substitutes for Roast Barley.

I've brewed a Porter with Chocolate and a small amount of Roast. If the roast was missing I think I'd notice it easily. Hard to image a stout without it.
 
zachattack said:
Only the Carafa "special" malts are dehusked/debittered I believe. The regular Carafa will be similar to black patent. I think. I could be wrong...
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If you use enough Carafa II and Carafa III, you get roasty - espresso flavors. It's more mild than roasted barley, but its closer than Chocolate malt.

Maybe like 4 or 5oz each of Carafa II and Carafa III for a 5?gallon batch.

My Schwarzlager has 4oz each (1.4% of grain bill) and its just a tad too roasty.

If say if you upped it a little in a stout: the lesser of 4.5% or 10oz. for 5 gallons, it could work.
 
Great advise. I plan on adding 6 cups of cold brewed coffee @ zero minutes, so I'm not worried about having a coffee flavor. I was more worried about it being TOO bitter. I want the roasty flavor, but with as little astringency as possible. I'm going for something mellow, creamy, and flavorful.
 
zachattack said:
Only the Carafa "special" malts are dehusked/debittered I believe. The regular Carafa will be similar to black patent. I think. I could be wrong...
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You are wrong, the Carafa are far less bitter than roasted barley, and nowhere near as bitter as black patent. The Carafa I is the lighter, II darker and III the darkest. Then as you note, there are Carafa "special" dehusked versions that are even less bitter than the already low bitterness "regular" Carafa.

Carafa III is pretty smooth, and dark. I would sub it for a stout, if I really didn't want it to be bitter. Maybe add some chocolate and a little black patent to make up for the lack of roasted barley. But it's starting to sound more like a dark porter than a true stout...
 
I was just thinking the same thing. Haha! I keep adding and tweaking my recipe, and I'm pretty sure that instead of a stout, I've created a porter recipe. I love the pre-brewing process.

I actually just found a 1/2 pound of Cara-pills in my brewroom 10 minutes ago, and I think I'll toss that in there, too. Why the hell not? Haha. Here's my current recipe...well...for the next 20 minutes anyway :)

MALTS

6 lbs. Pale Malt Extract (60%)
1 lbs. Flaked Oat (10%)
1 lbs. Roasted Barley (10%) *possible Carafa III substitution*
1 lb. Lactose (10%)
½ lb. Cara-pills (5%)
½ lbs. Crystal 80L (5%)


HOPS

½ oz. Northern Brewer (60 min.)
½ oz. Northern Brewer (30 min.)


YEAST

S-04


ADJUNCTS

6 Cups Cold-Brewed Coffee (0 min.)
1 ½ oz. Vanilla Extract (0 min.)
 
Now that I see your recipe, I say go for it. It's a sweet stout type beer anyway, and with the coffee adding some bitterness you should be just fine. When people talk about stout on here, they may mean a Russian Imperial which without at least some roasted barley would be a massive fail.
 
That's a lot going on, but looks good. The northern brewer should go well in it.

I've not used vanilla extract before. If there isn't any sugar in it, then you might think of adding it at bottling/kegging. That's what I do with hazelnut extract.
 
Good point. I don't want all my tasty vanilla to disappear. It's 41% alcohol, so I'm not too worried about sugar conversion, but I don't want to lose that delicious vanilla goodness. I added 1/2 ounce of vanilla extract to my first stout, and there was zero hint of it - not on the nose, and not on the pallet. I'm hoping this time I can taste it!
 
mrphillips said:
Great advise. I plan on adding 6 cups of cold brewed coffee @ zero minutes, so I'm not worried about having a coffee flavor. I was more worried about it being TOO bitter. I want the roasty flavor, but with as little astringency as possible. I'm going for something mellow, creamy, and flavorful.
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If you have never used Cold Brewed coffee before my advise is to wait w/it until bottling time. Then add the coffee to taste. You never know what it willtaste like if you add it before the ferment. By adding to taste at bottling time you get to perfect the amt of coffee to your taste buds. Remember you can't take it out once it's in so go slowly.
 
bethebrew said:
You are wrong, the Carafa are far less bitter than roasted barley, and nowhere near as bitter as black patent. The Carafa I is the lighter, II darker and III the darkest. Then as you note, there are Carafa "special" dehusked versions that are even less bitter than the already low bitterness "regular" Carafa.

Carafa III is pretty smooth, and dark. I would sub it for a stout, if I really didn't want it to be bitter. Maybe add some chocolate and a little black patent to make up for the lack of roasted barley. But it's starting to sound more like a dark porter than a true stout...
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:mug:

Thanks for the correction. I have seen a few people compare the darker Carafa malts to black patent though.
 
Im also thinking porter. One time I did Black pearl porter with a combo of Carafa II and III to replace the chocolate. I can't get chocolate so couldn't brew again to compare the carafa to something. Whichever style your recipe is fitting I think it looks like a tasty dark brew.
 
Sometimes...things change. Haha! I'm mid boil right now, and the grains I decided on were WAY different than what I originally wanted. I was real disappointed that my LHB didn't have Roasted Barley, but I was DEVISTATED when they didn't have Carafa either! Soooooo I rolled the dice a little bit. Buckle up...

I replaced Roasted Barley with 1/2 pound of Chocolate Malt, but I didn't add it until the last 15 minutes of the steep. I also added 1/2 pound of Victory Malt. Why? Honestly, it was just a gut feeling I went with. I have never used it before, and I know it probably doesn't belong in a porter, but I'm hoping that the Victory plus the CaraPills will make for a wonderfully thick body. If not, then I won't do it again :)

Well, gotta go add some hops. Wish me luck!
 
mrphillips said:
Sometimes...things change. Haha! I'm mid boil right now, and the grains I decided on were WAY different than what I originally wanted. I was real disappointed that my LHB didn't have Roasted Barley, but I was DEVISTATED when they didn't have Carafa either! Soooooo I rolled the dice a little bit. Buckle up...

I replaced Roasted Barley with 1/2 pound of Chocolate Malt, but I didn't add it until the last 15 minutes of the steep. I also added 1/2 pound of Victory Malt. Why? Honestly, it was just a gut feeling I went with. I have never used it before, and I know it probably doesn't belong in a porter, but I'm hoping that the Victory plus the CaraPills will make for a wonderfully thick body. If not, then I won't do it again :)

Well, gotta go add some hops. Wish me luck!
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Victory malt smells like victory in the morning.
 
I just got the batch down to 70 degrees and tossed her in primary/pitched yeast. I gotta say, it smells AMAZING! The 4 cups of coffee and 1 1/2 oz. vanilla seem to be in perfect balance with the bitterness of the hops and chocolate malt. I'm glad I used the Victory with the CaraPills. I enjoy doing things that don't make total sense...there is no progress without experimentation.

The OG was 1.058. I'll post up in a week and let you know the FG and how she tastes. One of my friends requested a thick, creamy stout/porter, so If this doesn't deliver, I guess I'll have to drink it all myself. Bummer.
 
Man oh man can that S-04 do some WORK! I woke up and my airlock looked like a chocolate geyser! I've never had a beer that I had to clean out my airlock on before. Still smells great. A month is TOO LONG to wait! I'm not sure if I'm gunna make it...
 
mrphillips said:
Man oh man can that S-04 do some WORK! I woke up and my airlock looked like a chocolate geyser! I've never had a beer that I had to clean out my airlock on before. Still smells great. A month is TOO LONG to wait! I'm not sure if I'm gunna make it...
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Make sure to keep it under 70 degrees- S04 works hard and gets warm quickly, so do your best to keep it cool.

It should finish fermentation in just a couple of days, and will start to clear pretty quickly as well. S04 leaves a very clear beer behind, because the yeast drops like a rock! It should be ready to bottle.

With the recipe changes you've made, it looks like an English brown ale with vanilla and coffee.
 
I was surprised how dark it was with just the 1/2 lb. of Chocolate Malt. I was thinking of a brown ale, but it's pretty dark. I love how I'm riding the line between 2 or 3 different styles - JUST what I was going for. Haha. I'll be curious which one wins out.

What is the flavor profile on most English Browns?
 
mrphillips said:
I was surprised how dark it was with just the 1/2 lb. of Chocolate Malt. I was thinking of a brown ale, but it's pretty dark. I love how I'm riding the line between 2 or 3 different styles - JUST what I was going for. Haha. I'll be curious which one wins out.

What is the flavor profile on most English Browns?
Click to expand...

Southern English browns are a bit sweeter, with caramel notes, while Northern English browns are drier and have nutty/toasty notes. A 'nut brown' ale is a Northern English brown. Victory malt provides a nut flavor, and is very common in Northern browns.

I wouldn't like coffee or vanilla in my beer, but if you do this might be exactly right for you.
 
mrphillips said:
I was surprised how dark it was with just the 1/2 lb. of Chocolate Malt. I was thinking of a brown ale, but it's pretty dark. I love how I'm riding the line between 2 or 3 different styles - JUST what I was going for. Haha. I'll be curious which one wins out.

What is the flavor profile on most English Browns?
Click to expand...

If you haven't already, go through the BJCP styles. Lots of good information there.

Also, careful with clogged airlocks. I had krausen going up and over even a full sized blow off tube with S-04. Full sized airlock to jar of sanitizer mounted ABOVE your liquid level. And try to keep your temps down as has been noted. 62 F to 64 F ideal meaning you need a 60 F box to equate to that ferment temp.
 
Day 4 of fermentation, and that bad ***** is still bubbling strong! I can only hold the temperature at right around 70, but since this beer will come out pretty sweet anyways, I'm not all too concerned about the temp. From looking at the different English Brown recipes, I'm fairly certain that this will end up being a Southern English Brown Ale. I'm pretty excited. I'll be switching her to the secondary on Friday.

I'll taste her and report what's going on with it. Since the style isn't anywhere near what I started out making, I'm anticipating the flavors to be equally surprising.

Can anyone suggest a nice Southern (sweeter) English Brown to try? I love New Castle, but I'm pretty sure that's more of a Northern, dry English Brown. As always, thanks a bunch!
 
I feel like a father seeing his first being born...and I didn't know the gender. Haha! Turns out, this 5-gallon batch is a beautifully bouncing baby Brown Ale. I was worried about fruity ester flavors because my fermented at 72 degrees, but if they're there, I can't say I mind them ;)

ABV is right at 5% (OG 1.058 - FG 1.020), and it tastes like a smooth, cold cup of coffee. Very pleasant. It's a little sweet from the lactose and vanilla I added, but only so far as to compliment the coffee flavor. I wouldn't describe it as "sweet," simply complimentary. I do wish it was a little thicker, but the flavor profile was exactly what I was looking for. Will I make it again? You bet your sweet a$$ I'll be making it again! I would like to try it without the coffee just to see what would happen, but for this batch, I don't think I'd change a thing...unless you have any suggestions :)

I'm very excited. It's unconventional, unintentional, and most importantly...wonderful. I can't wait to see what 2 weeks in the secondary does!

Thank you for all your help here at HBT!
 
mrphillips said:
I feel like a father seeing his first being born...and I didn't know the gender. Haha! Turns out, this 5-gallon batch is a beautifully bouncing baby Brown Ale. I was worried about fruity ester flavors because my fermented at 72 degrees, but if they're there, I can't say I mind them ;)

ABV is right at 5% (OG 1.058 - FG 1.020), and it tastes like a smooth, cold cup of coffee. Very pleasant. It's a little sweet from the lactose and vanilla I added, but only so far as to compliment the coffee flavor. I wouldn't describe it as "sweet," simply complimentary. I do wish it was a little thicker, but the flavor profile was exactly what I was looking for. Will I make it again? You bet your sweet a$$ I'll be making it again! I would like to try it without the coffee just to see what would happen, but for this batch, I don't think I'd change a thing...unless you have any suggestions :)

I'm very excited. It's unconventional, unintentional, and most importantly...wonderful. I can't wait to see what 2 weeks in the secondary does!

Thank you for all your help here at HBT!
Click to expand...

The suggestion is to somehow get your ferment temp down to 63. Cooler weather? 70 means maybe 75 inside the carboy, and we keep trying to tell you it's too warm for that yeast!

But cheers, it's great to see you so stoked.
 
I can't explain why there's so few esters in the beer! I know that I need to keep it cooler, and hopefully I'll be able to Jerry-Rig a better cooling system sometime in the near future (hopefully moving to someplace with a basement :)). This was my first experience with S-04, and I learned a lot. Haha.

I know the rule of thumb is a week in primary and 2 weeks in secondary, but would it be immoral to bottle after only a week in the secondary? I've achieved the flavor I want, so why not give the bottles more conditioning time and ultimately, get that **** in my belly quicker?
 

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